Tour of Britain – Stage 3 , eZee vs Kalkhoff

WaiWonChing

Pedelecer
Nov 27, 2007
55
0
I'd have thought a high top speed is not the main factor when it comes to a high average speed unless you live in a very flat area.

In hilly territory there comes a point as gradients increase where the Panasonic motor will out-perform a hub motor.

This point will vary depending on bikes and riders, but it seems that for gradients up to about 15%, a Hub motor will be faster than a Panasonic motor.

So in hilly territory (but not too hilly!!), you will get higher averages speed with a hub motor.

So my question really should be, is there any technical reason why the Panasonics can't go up hill faster?

Regard,

Elephants
I have many opportunities to try the Panasonic system, and it won't do for me on climbs like in Seattle where it is so hilly, because I am so weak. (No , not because I am bias and my mind is closed).

The new Torq with the same motor as the Sprint has 36 N-m and with `135 rpm still for the top peak load of 20 amps, The old Torq BFmotor stops at 16amps.

The Torq has 52 T chainwheel for very low cadence , assuming people like the casual and slow movement despite doing 16 mph. If we change this to 48 it could be better with lower gears when climbing.

This 3 stage of the ToB I think will say a lot in the end, we clear the matter that eZee has higher torque or hill climbing capability ( even it is all the way ),
better speed, higher energy content, and same if not higher efficiencies, very comfortable riding position in order to help with the endurance over such a long ride.

The simple answer as to why the Panasonic would not climb hill faster is because their motor and their power electronics does not do more than eZee.

Till date we have 3 eZee customers signing up for the trip.
And I have started my training.

Best regards
W W Ching
 

stokepa31_mk2

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 7, 2008
381
0
i can't argue with your positive attitude Mr Ching but as a torq 2 owner and a kalkhoff owner I am pretty sure you will be walking up the king of the mountain climbs!!
 

JamesC

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 1, 2007
435
5
Peterborough, UK
i can't argue with your positive attitude Mr Ching but as a torq 2 owner and a kalkhoff owner I am pretty sure you will be walking up the king of the mountain climbs!!
Assuming the ToB event is still the original proposal of the full ToB stage, it is well outside my capacity on a Torq 1, much as I enjoy touring with it.

The Torq 2 with its high power, lower geared motor is obviously a much better bet on the hills, and Mr Ching has certainly put it through its paces on the Silk Route rides.

I hope the event is a success, and shows that the revisions on the Torq have produced a powerful hillclimber.

James
 

Planetcooler

Finding my (electric) wheels
Oct 14, 2007
22
2
Torq Li batteries and Torq 1 > 2 upgrade ?

Unfortunately I came to this discussion late. If the race is going ahead - good luck to all - have a great time whenever it is.

Two points come to mind - I have been trying to resolve the merits of the Lithium batteries versus NiMH for those of us living in hilly areas. I reiterate - I'm not interested in high speed or long distance - I just need a battery that will deliver reasonable longevity. I am on my second Phylion - I don't have any fancy monitoring gear - but I am logging its performance closely. I do a 2 x 10 mile trip - with a hill in the way in each direction. I am not long into my second battery and am beginning to get in to the amber on the hill after a few dozen trips only. I wait to see if the Phylion can deliver - or whether I should try NiMH or await the outcome of the "new" batteries - I guess they are LiFePEO4 based? The issue being that while the batteries still have considerable "life" in them - once they cut out on a hill - you are worse of than on a normal push bike.

Alternatively - I suspect I am suffering "early adopter" issues - at least as far as non-urban users are concerned. I have watched the discussion on "gearing" for a while - whether it be the internal hub motor gearing or the crank to rear sprocket to wheel ratios. It begins to sound to me as though the Torq 2 may offer better gear ratios for those faced with hill climbs. I just wonder if Mr Wong is considering an upgrade path for those of us with Torq 1's ? Something based around the Ezee Kits perhaps ?

Will look forward to hearing the outcome of the race .... or should I say endurance test.......will also probably be in the market for a low mileage used battery....
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
I wait to see if the Phylion can deliver - or whether I should try NiMH or await the outcome of the "new" batteries - I guess they are LiFePEO4 based? The issue being that while the batteries still have considerable "life" in them - once they cut out on a hill - you are worse of than on a normal push bike.
The "new" batteries are still Li-ion manganese, no major manufacturer is willing to adopt lithium iron yet due to inconclusive testing outcomes. I'm at 240 charges and nearly 3700 miles now on a test "new" Phylion battery, infinitely better than the earlier ones, and I'm hoping they'll be adopted shortly.

I just wonder if Mr Wong is considering an upgrade path for those of us with Torq 1's ? Something based around the Ezee Kits perhaps ?
Wong = Ching. :)

Only possible if the whole electrical kit including motor wheel is changed, so not really economic, especially if the brake is changed to the disc as well.
.
 

Planetcooler

Finding my (electric) wheels
Oct 14, 2007
22
2
eZee conversion

apologies - I meant Mr Ching.

Thanks for your comments flecc- I'll be keeping my eye on the battery and hope that I see a similar improvement in performance - at least in terms of cut-out.

At Canadian $750 (see eZee Kits) the eZee kit might be somewhat more "economic" than trading my Torq 1 up to a Torq 2.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
At Canadian $750 (see eZee Kits) the eZee kit might be somewhat more "economic" than trading my Torq 1 up to a Torq 2.
Could be, though I doubt that price included the battery and a new bike brings a new battery with it.

Taking into account the new battery price, getting money for the old Torq on ebay and any wear and tear on it, starting with a new one might still be a competitive option.
.
 

keithhazel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 1, 2007
997
0
Route

Okm Kingston upon Hull 10:00
10km Barton-upon-Humber : Sprint 10:45
15km Barrow-upon-Humber 10:50
30km South Ferriby 11:10
53km Beverley 11:45
74km Hornsea 12:15
96km Bridlington : Sprint 12:45
116km Filey 13:15
126km Scarborough : Sprint 13:35
138km Falsgrave : KOM 13:45
152km North Side : KOM 14:05
155km Dalby Forest : KOM 14:10
168km Dalby Forest Visitor Centre 14:30


Links
Welcome to Hull & East Yorkshire | Official Visit Hull and East Yorkshire Tourism Website
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in my home town too.....come over here mr ching and im on for your half price battery offer...:D
 

riggo

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 12, 2007
9
0
Dorset UK
Rules and Route

I have been asked by David Henshaw to draft some rules for this event/trial so some meaningful and useful results can be gained, David has also suggested that a speed distance formula be employed to level the playing field. Below is an extract from David's email explaining the formula and also the draft rules

It occurred to me that a fair way of taking account of speed AND range would be to come up with a formula that featured both.Looking at our recent tests of Ezee and Kalkhoff bikes, we have these results by simply adding together milage and speed:
Nano Brompton 47.9 miles @ 13.4mph = 61.3 points
Kalkhoff Pro Connect 31.5 miles @ 14.7mph = 46.2 points
Ezee Sprint 29.3 miles @ 16mph = 45.3 points
Ezee Torq 22.8 miles @ 18.9mph = 41.7 points
Kalkhoff Aggatu 26.,7 miles @ 14mph = 40.7 points
Gazelle Easy Glider 19.5 miles @ 13.2mph = 32.7 points

This is quite an interesting result, because it's a great leveller, but biased towards the bikes that do the greatest mileage. So for three batteries, it would be total milage plus speed in mph x 3.
In practise, of course, the nano rider would be pretty impressive to do nearly 150 miles in a day, so it simply couldn't win so starkly. A Sprint ridden with great care would have just as good a chance



Draft Rules

1.The event is not a race, the trial is to establish a machine's efficiency not its outright speed.

2.Bikes must be UK street legal.

3.Batteries must be standard retail items as supplied normally with the bike.

4.A maximum of three batteries may be used and must be carried on the bike at all times.

5.Participants may carry a basic repair kit, items allowed 1 tyre, 1 inner tube, 1 drive chain, spare chain links, spokes, puncture repair kit, tools, spare fuses/relays, gear and brake cables.

6.Participants must carry a first aid kit and a mobile phone.

7.All bikes, batteries, repair/ spares kits and 1st aid kits must be submitted to the scutineer 1 hour prior to the trial starting. Any bikes/ batteries found not to be street legal or showing any signs of modification from a standard retail product will result in disqualification . The scrutineers decision is final.

8.Bikes must remain in scrutineering until the start of the trial.

9.Nobody may enter scrutineering unless invited by event officials

10.Two minutes prior to the start riders only may enter scutineering to collect their machine and proceed directly to the start line.

11. A detailed route book will be released to the rider at the start line, details of the route will not be released prior to this time.

13. Riders will be started individually at 1 minute intervals.

14.All Participants must visit all check points on the course failure to do so will result in disqualification.

15.Support vehicles and staff must remain at the start finish area and will only be allowed to leave to collect bikes and riders that have retired from the trial.

16.In the event of a participant retiring from the race, the rider has sole responsibility for their own and their machines recovery. The event organisers will not be offering any recovery service.

17.The rider will be responsible for their own safety, the trial is held on public roads and any infringement of the highway code or dangerous riding will result in disqualification.

18.When the rider arrives at the finish they must proceed directly to scrutineering, failure to do so will result in disqualification.

19.Results will be released when all machines that have finished have been released from scrutineering.

20.If a rider / machine is disqualified for whatever reason. no appeal will be accepted, the scrutineer's/judge's decision is final.

21. All participants must register 7 days before the trial. late entries will not be considered.

Comments please

Riggo
 

keithhazel

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 1, 2007
997
0
Draft Rules

1.The event is not a race, the trial is to establish a machine's efficiency not its outright speed.

2.Bikes must be UK street legal.


Comments please

Riggo
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by "street legal"...

does this mean that NO deristricted bike can enter ?...

does it mean that no bike that had smaller sprockets added to go beyond the legal 15 mph can enter ?..

:confused:
 

HarryB

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 22, 2007
1,317
3
London
I am not sure if any Cytronex riders are considering entering this event but the rules would seem to exclude them (unless they did the majority by leg power alone). It is difficult to see them doing many more than 60 miles on three very small batteries.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
I am not sure if any Cytronex riders are considering entering this event but the rules would seem to exclude them (unless they did the majority by leg power alone). It is difficult to see them doing many more than 60 miles on three very small batteries.
Which has been one of my points on this bike Hal. I think it's a great concept for those who prefer a proper bike, but it isn't up to the current state of the art on range, 20 miles being yesterday's stuff. As has been pointed out, with the strong rider necessary for this event, the standard Pro Connect can do the T.o.B 113 miles with about two and a half batteries, three easily, and at the same average speeds Cytronex users have been reporting (12.5 to 13.5 mph).

The two war cries from e-bike users over the years have been "more power" and "more range", and "cycling qualities" haven't figured anything like as strongly, that call mainly coming from confirmed cyclists rather than from typical e-bikers.
.
 

HarryB

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 22, 2007
1,317
3
London
Which has been one of my points on this bike Hal. I think it's a great concept for those who prefer a proper bike, but it isn't up to the current state of the art on range, 20 miles being yesterday's stuff. As has been pointed out, with the strong rider necessary for this event, the standard Pro Connect can do the T.o.B 113 miles with about two and a half batteries, three easily, and at the same average speeds Cytronex users have been reporting (12.5 to 13.5 mph).

The two war cries from e-bike users over the years have been "more power" and "more range", and "cycling qualities" haven't figured anything like as strongly, that call mainly coming from confirmed cyclists rather than from typical e-bikers.
.
As Cytronex say you can always have two batteries for longer range and I am not sure what the point is of limiting the number of batteries - it might be more interesting having a battery weight limit (and I am sure the Cytronex would struggle with that). Just seems a bit arbitrary to me that's all (as this this is a deliberate design feature of the bike).
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
I think the battery limit is just that Wai Won wanted to make a point about the eZee and Panasonic relative abilities, as he seemingly doesn't believe the Pro Connect can do 30 miles on a battery. I know it can, the heavier Agattu had no trouble doing more than that in very hilly territory with this 71 year old on board in chilly November/December weather, not the best conditions for battery performance.

I believe the event is now going to take place on the 10th September, the day after the T.o.B, more sensible I think.
.
 

HarryB

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 22, 2007
1,317
3
London
I think the battery limit is just that Wai Won wanted to make a point about the eZee and Panasonic relative abilities, as he seemingly doesn't believe the Pro Connect can do 30 miles on a battery. I know it can, the heavier Agattu had no trouble doing more than that in very hilly territory with this 71 year old on board in chilly November/December weather, not the best conditions for battery performance.

I believe the event is now going to take place on the 10th September, the day after the T.o.B, more sensible I think.
.
Yes as standard my Agattu would do 37 miles on a battery - my Torq wouldn't get near that but it would go a bit faster. I am not sure what it is supposed to prove either and if it is a bit of fun why all the rules about number of batteries? Are there any Pro-connects entered anyway?
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
Yes as standard my Agattu would do 37 miles on a battery - my Torq wouldn't get near that but it would go a bit faster. I am not sure what it is supposed to prove either and if it is a bit of fun why all the rules about number of batteries? Are there any Pro-connects entered anyway?
The challenge was to David at A to B as it was his review which Wai Won scorned, so the Pro Connect is what David is going to ride. He did make a mischievous aside to me about thinking of riding a Wisper instead though. :D

The number of batteries was proposed by Wai Won as four since he didn't believe the Pro Connect would make the distance on those. David suggested three, and that's how many batteries now. That will really test both bikes ability if the whole 113 miles is ridden.

Personally, with these riders in their 50s on that route, I think an ambulance, defibrilator and oxygen should be on standby, and I'm not joking about that, the risk is real.
.
 

riggo

Finding my (electric) wheels
Jun 12, 2007
9
0
Dorset UK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

by "street legal"...

does this mean that NO deristricted bike can enter ?...

does it mean that no bike that had smaller sprockets added to go beyond the legal 15 mph can enter ?..

:confused:
Street legal means exactly that, so no derestriction or assistance above 15mph, after all if the trial is taking place on the public highway the bike has to be legal.

If modified bikes want to join in they can just for fun, but their results will not be recorded and the bikes will not be scrutinized, they will be mass started after all the street legal machines have departed.

After speaking to David Henshaw it has been proposed to move the date of the trial to Sunday 14/09/08, this opens it to more people and makes marshalling, logistics, etc a lot easier.

The route will be circular, with a common start finish point located in the small town of Beaminster,Dorset, there will be facilities for charging batteries, parking vehicles,etc and possibly the provision of basic camping facilities

The route will still take in some of the original ToB stage

Riggo
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,152
30,567
If you get a chance to post the route and it's length that will be appreciated Riggo.
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