Tour of Britain – Stage 3 , eZee vs Kalkhoff

[WALKERMAN]

Race Event

My guess is that this is intended on a different day, the 9th September mention just being the ToB date.
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Hi Flecc
Will I be able to use my 'virtual' Pro Connect 53cm Gents in the race as I still haven't got my real one and probably won't have it by September either the ways things are going!

I realized recently that the name I use on this forum (WALKERMAN) has become very appropriate, maybe I should change it to 'WAITINGMAN' I feel it might never become 'BIKERMAN'

 

[flecc]

Hi Flecc
Will I be able to use my 'virtual' Pro Connect 53cm Gents in the race as I still haven't got my real one and probably won't have it by September either the ways things are going!

Why not, using virtual current you'd have infinite range and power so should win easily.
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[poppy]

Hi Flecc
Will I be able to use my 'virtual' Pro Connect 53cm Gents in the race as I still haven't got my real one and probably won't have it by September either the ways things are going!

I realized recently that the name I use on this forum (WALKERMAN) has become very appropriate, maybe I should change it to 'WAITINGMAN' I feel it might never become 'BIKERMAN'

From WAITINGMAN you can go on to FUMINGMAN.

 

[WaiWonChing]

Chief eZee Operator

Hi,

The Panasonic system is excellent in its own way, eZee at one time several years ago looked to this for our bikes, but decided strategically that we must develop our own that is different if not better. Otherwise where would we be ? There is Kalkhoff, Flyer, Gazelle, Helkama, Raliegh, Monarch, Giant, etc, etc using the same.

What I am trying to do here is balance the informations (some bias to the extreme) flooding in very much in favour of the Panasonic system, it is one very small guy against many giants.

I have already made clear in the first place, there is no need for the Lycra brigade to charge to the finishing line, there are already a very big bunch of pros who made that stage of the TOB in 4 hrs 45 mins., and we (mere mortals) are talking about 8 hrs with 4 batteries for us ebike cyclist.

So for any meaningful information, we have to look at the physical fitness of the rider, and details of the electrical energy performance and hopefully work out what is from the body and what is from the battery over 112 miles. I figure a much longer trip with some hill challenges would be able to give a more accurate picture, rather than a 1 hr charge at the Presteigne.

It is of course sometimes a little difficult to write very clearly what's in one's mind, as I am not a professional writer. Let me try again, if I ride the Kalkhoff ( Assuming I have nothing to do with eZee ) I could not possibly make this 112 miles even in 10 hrs, there is simply not enough energy in the batteries for me 270wh x 4 , but with 370 x 4 , maybe I could just about make it, if I start to do some excercise and training now.

Best regards
W W Ching

 

[WaiWonChing]

Chief eZee Operator

Hi,

Looks like there is several matters here that I need to reply.

1) This is not an organised race, it is a friendly riding trip amongst friend,
with an intent to find out how our bikes and ourselves works together.

2) I do not know exactly at this time, if we could like take off 1 hrs after the pros started at 10.00 we start at 11.00 am and finish 3 or 4 hrs later.
I figure we would not be more than 4 ot 5 people participating, maybe more ? I don't know. David Henshaw would help determine the final route and time.

3) Obviously Scott Snaith does not understand much about electric bikes despite having been in this business with eZee for a few years. It is not possible that I could just turn the throttle finish this 112 miles over some hilly areas with 22 mph assuming even there is no wind at all. If I could it will really show that I have a miracle product in hand.

4) From my experience of riding the 2200 km for part of the silk route, I could do an average of 22.5 km / hr 14 mph , so I have no need of a de-restricted motor. I am not a dare devil who could handle high speed either.

5) There is more than enough business or orders for me to handle, eZee sales has more than double this year vs 2007 , and will more than double in 2009 vs 2008. So this excercise is not about getting more sales, it is about getting the informations right.

Best regards
W W Ching

 

[Ian]

This is certainly an interesting challenge and there's no doubt that it really is a challenge in the strongest sense of the word. While I don't know the finer details of the route to be taken I am very familiar with the area and it's hills, particularly the vicious climbs up to Exmoor and over the Brendon and Quantock hills, described by the ToB organisers as "King of the Mountains climbs".

I have no doubt that either bike with a suitable rider is capable of doing the stage, but to attempt it in one day calls for a good deal of courage or masochistic tendencies. I know from experience that a 15 mph average would be difficult to maintain in such challenging terrain, made even harder by having to haul 3 extra batteries up numerous steep inclines. The Pros high averages are helped by achieving very high speeds on the descents, a lot easier with a agile, aerodynamic, ultra-light bike unencumbered by luggage and with an escort ensuring a clear road than it would be for a normal person riding a much heavier machine on busier roads, and a lower average means longer in the saddle, longer than most (includung me) could tolerate.

I wish all of the participants good luck and will be watching the results with interest, they will certainly separate the men from the boys. However I feel that the stronger rider will win, the event being more about the riders endurance than any aspect of the bikes performance.

 

[stokepa31_mk2]

Been reading back through this and a thought springs to mind. would'nt it be better to do a course that starts and finishes in the same place for ease of logistics. I also agree with Nick that 100 miles is a bit far and 50 (both makes would then only need one extra battery) is more sensible. I would give it a go on my agattu but would prefer something further north.

 

[WaiWonChing]

Chief eZee Operator

Tour of Manchester - Stage (daily both ways).

Distance 19.8 Miles.

Best time so far on ProConnect (medium power sixteen teeth rear sprocket) 55 minutes and 55 seconds (one third charge left in battery - heart-rate aerobic).

So average speed 21.25 mph.

I am a utility cyclist, but not a Japanese Granny

Let me get this right, if not please correct me.

Your total distance ca. 20 miles daily both ways, meaning you do one way 10 miles and that is only 1/2 hr on and return hone at the end of the day with an 6 - 8 hrs break in between ? And do you charge your battery in between ?

I would look at it this way , at 20 mph the required energy is about 330 watts, your body put in about 150 and your battery provided 180 , this you could perhaps easily sustain over 1/2 hr, if you have normal fitness according to age. The question is does your Pro Connect provide power above 14 mph ?
If it does it does not conform to the EU regulation and is not the normal control parameters set in the Panasonic system which basically provides very little power once it reach 22 kmph or 13.75 mph. So, could your ride been pretty mixed with some sectors done at utility speed and some with lots of power from your legs. Or the Kalkhoff sold in Uk does not conform to EU reg.
Meaning your bike has been modified from the 23 T rear sprocket to 16 T rear sprocket for the Nexus 8.

For those who understand simple bicycle mechanics, as what David Henshaw has informed me, they have switch the sprocket on the Pro Connect in the Presteigne event from the original 23T to 16T. They have MODIFIED the bikes, and such blatant lies that they send in a regular production model, and how the bias in the AtoB magaizne write " lightened and re-gear" instead of MODIFIED as he use on describing the Torq that won. Ian did not "MODIFIED" the Torq he rode, he un-plugged the connector which allowed higher speed on the regular production model, de-restriction is the common termed use on the Torq. Just a matter of semantics.

Best regards to all.
W W Ching

Regards
W W Ching

 

[WALKERMAN]

Race Event

Hi

Ian had 2 batteries linked up for the race on his luggage rack because one battery is not enough for 1 hour of use at that speed. He should have been disqualified on that basis, as one battery per race is allowed. But it was just a bit of fun so does not really matter.

Please get it over it and stop sounding so bitter.

We have the whole race on video with a clear picture and clear shot of a hidden battery wired up. If thats not cheating I do not know what is. The Kalkhoff clearly won and was plain to see for anyone at the event.

Best regards

Scott

This 'race' event sounds more like it could turn into a medieval-type tournament with riders facing up to each other with swords, lances, etc.
I think I will withdraw my 'virtual' Pro Connect in case either of us gets hurt in the battles.

 

[flecc]

This 'race' event sounds more like it could turn into a medieval-type tournament with riders facing up to each other with swords, lances, etc.
I think I will withdraw my 'virtual' Pro Connect in case either of us gets hurt in the battles.

I must admit that I don't think it will prove anything.

Wai Won is quite right to point to the higher power and greater battery capacity of his bikes, and though he is critical of A to B magazine, he should note that on every eZee bike test, they've reported consistently higher average speed on them than on any of the Panasonic unit bikes they've tested.

On those grounds alone the eZee bike should win if both bikes are standard and both riders of exactly equal ability.

On the other hand, the Panasonic unit bikes have markedly less rolling resistance than any internally geared wheel-hub-motor bike, so that provides some offset to the additional available energy of the eZee bikes.
In addition, the Panasonic design more cleverly enforces rider contribution of power, giving a further offset, so the eventual difference is not as great as might superficially be imagined.

So the conclusion is that the standard eZee bike has the fundamentally better overall performance, but the Panasonic unit bike gives a better pure cycling experience.

Not just theory but the conclusions of years of ownership and high mileages on both types.

Where "modifying" is concerned, the derestriction of an eZee bike has the primary objective of higher speed over the legal limit of 25 kph. Changing the rear sprocket on Panasonic unit bikes, although it also takes a small proportion of the power assist into illegality, has the primary objective of shifting the start of power phase down from 15 kph upwards to as much as 21.6 kph with a 16 tooth rear sprocket.
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[Django]

So the conclusion is that the standard eZee bike has the fundamentally better overall performance, but the Panasonic unit bike gives a better pure cycling experience

True, but then a normal bicycle would, on a priori grounds, give an even better pure cycling experience if that is what one is after. So why not ride a normal bike unless one wants to but physically requires assistance? (the 'Japanese grand mother' quip). For me, the 'fundamentally better overall performance' and the more flexible manner of power delivery of the Torq make it a far more attractive proposition.

 

[essexman]

Its a great fun idea but the suggested formats a bit silly. Give a bit more notice and open it up to all and sundry a la presteigne and make it shorter so the battery nonsense isnt an issue. I think the Brompton world championship or Smithfield Nocturnes are better models.

re The A2B comments. A2B gave the Torq a glowing reviews and consistently display its fast ride time. They are also very consistent that they think the Kalkhoffs, gazelles, spartas etc are better full on utility bikes that they prefer to ride as they are utility cyclists. Given the hilly terrain they constantly state their preference for bikes that can do hills well. A2B are bias, but they state the basis of that bias.

PS If the kalkhofs's are for Grandads (they are so Masculine with that Germanic feel), the Torq is for my Dad (Its a little middle aged isnt it?). Its not exactly a sleek utralight urban hybrid is it? Its a good bike, probably best in its class (does it have any competition? The wisper i guess. Dont care really) but its not cool or sexy.

PPS Stating my bias i agree with A2B. My kalkhoff roadster is the best practical bike i've owned (beating my dawes sardar and birdy touring). I dont own a sports bike. If i did it would weight about 8.5 kg and go like the wind.

PPPS Vive LeTour! Real racing!

 

[flecc]

True, but then a normal bicycle would, on a priori grounds, give an even better pure cycling experience if that is what one is after. So why not ride a normal bike unless one wants to but physically requires assistance? (the 'Japanese grand mother' quip). For me, the 'fundamentally better overall performance' and the more flexible manner of power delivery of the Torq make it a far more attractive proposition.

Of course Django, and why I always stress how different the systems and their aims are, and there's a division of preference in consequence.

There are many who want to continue with a pure bicycle, but want some assistance with circumstances, such as the severity of the hills, a minor disability, their age, or a simple desire not to arrive at work sweating etc. For them the Panasonic or Cytronex concepts are ideal.

I like both types but for different purposes, depending on whether cycling pleasure or power and performance are the priority.

Hence my point above that there is little point to a challenge, since it's like trying to say which is best between Cheddar and Edam. Both hard cheeses but different, the best being an individual's subjective judgement and not definitive fact.
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[ElephantsGerald]

Hence my point above that there is little point to a challenge, since it's like trying to say which is best between Cheddar and Edam. Both hard cheeses but different, the best being an individual's subjective judgement and not definitive fact.
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I like Cheddar and Edam, although I'd prefer a good Cheddar to a bad Edam. I like Stilton too...

But seriously, ignoring the issues around rider input (or not), it seems to me that the biggest differentiator between Panasonic and Hub motors is the maximum average speed obtainable. From anecdotal reports (on this forum) its seems that the Panasonic gives a superior 'biking' experience in all respects except speed.

Would it be too much to hope for a Panasonic powered bike that could achieve higher average speeds? Are there technical reasons why this would not be possible?

IMHO a Panasonic powered bike that could achieve the same or better average speeds as a Wisper/Torq would be the ultimate best bike, no competition possible.

Regards,

Elephants

 

[stokepa31_mk2]

I like Cheddar and Edam, although I'd prefer a good Cheddar to a bad Edam. I like Stilton too...

IMHO a Panasonic powered bike that could achieve the same or better average speeds as a Wisper/Torq would be the ultimate best bike, no competition possible.

Regards,

Elephants

Hi Elephants. I have no trouble maintaining 20mph on the flat with an 18 tooth sprocket fitted to my panny which is the same as de-restrictin the torq and wisper. I think it is the ultimate. I own a Torq too but it is not derestrictable.

 

[Django]

I like both types but for different purposes, depending on whether cycling pleasure or power and performance are the priority.

I like Cheddar and Edam, although I'd prefer a good Cheddar to a bad Edam. I like Stilton too...

But seriously, ignoring the issues around rider input (or not), it seems to me that the biggest differentiator between Panasonic and Hub motors is the maximum average speed obtainable. From anecdotal reports (on this forum) its seems that the Panasonic gives a superior 'biking' experience in all respects except speed.

Would it be too much to hope for a Panasonic powered bike that could achieve higher average speeds? Are there technical reasons why this would not be possible?

IMHO a Panasonic powered bike that could achieve the same or better average speeds as a Wisper/Torq would be the ultimate best bike, no competition possible.

Regards,

Elephants

For me (subjectively) the better bike would still be the Wisper/Torq. The delivery of power through the Panasonic system is, in part, counter-intuitive which detracts from the experience. Equally, that slight delay between human input and motor reaction reduces control and 'feel'; not a problem with a hub motor as the two inputs are physically dislocated. With a throttle you can add power as and when you want it, rather than when the machine wants to give it to you.

In other words the cycling pleasure as well as the power and performance are (for me) superior on the Wisper/eZee models.

 

[Django]

Hence my point above that there is little point to a challenge, since it's like trying to say which is best between Cheddar and Edam. Both hard cheeses but different, the best being an individual's subjective judgement and not definitive fact.
.

I agree about it being subjective, but having a group of people spending the day cycling together on two different systems would be interesting as an opportunity to 'share notes' as well as a fun day out.

Perhaps Wai Won and David should swap bikes at ten mile intervals then report back their considered impressions. Despite (because of?) possible bias, it would be fascinating.

 

[flecc]

I agree about it being subjective, but having a group of people spending the day cycling together on two different systems would be interesting as an opportunity to 'share notes' as well as a fun day out.

Perhaps Wai Won and David should swap bikes at ten mile intervals then report back their considered impressions. Despite (because of?) possible bias, it would be fascinating.

Couldn't agree more Django, but given the distance, duration and climbs involved, it's not going to be much of a fun day out as it stands.

Another factor is that each bike type has a different technique to get the best out of it, and that's particularly important with the Panasonic system. Almost everyone gets it wrong at first, and that's been seen in the many queries from new owners on the lines of "lack of power".

So swapping bikes may once again not lead to any useful conclusion, but would give David of A to B an advantage since he likes and rides both types all the time, so can get the best from both.

When all's said and done, as others have remarked above, one is a utility bike, the other has a sporting bias and they suit different purposes and people.
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[Django]

Couldn't agree more Django, but given the distance, duration and climbs involved, it's not going to be much of a fun day out as it stands.

Fun in the Max Mosely sense perhaps.

But seriously, pushing man and machine to the limits has to be fun. I would love to take part.

 

[Tiberius]

But seriously, pushing man and machine to the limits has to be fun. I would love to take part.

The other side of the horses for courses argument is that the course could be designed to suit one horse rather than the other.

For instance, the Tour of Britain South West Stage possibly has some hills that it would be near the limit of the Torq climbing ability. If they were just that little bit too steep for the rider and bike, then the Panasonic would win.

On the other hand, a long race on the flat with no wind, becomes a test of the rider and the rolling resistance, not of the motor system.

Specify the course and the rules, and then I will choose the bike.

Nick