First sentence is correct.
Second sentence should read: I'd love to watch it on the telly.
.
Tour of Britain – Stage 3 , eZee vs Kalkhoff
- Thread starter WaiWonChing
- Start date
Second sentence should read: I'd love to watch it on the telly.
.
I'd have thought a high top speed is not the main factor when it comes to a high average speed unless you live in a very flat area.
In hilly territory there comes a point as gradients increase where the Panasonic motor will out-perform a hub motor.
This point will vary depending on bikes and riders, but it seems that for gradients up to about 15%, a Hub motor will be faster than a Panasonic motor.
So in hilly territory (but not too hilly!!), you will get higher averages speed with a hub motor.
So my question really should be, is there any technical reason why the Panasonics can't go up hill faster?
Regard,
Elephants
If you can pick the right gear ratio ( which I guess you can with a Panasionic setup ) then the maximum speed of hill climb will be determined by the peak power output of the motor.
Yes. The latest Panasonic unit has nearly 30% less peak power than an eZee Torq, but it can apply that peak power at speeds right down to 4 mph or so according to the gear hub. The eZee motor's power starts declining below about 10 mph, so a point of lower speed is reached on a steep hill where the eZee is the less powerful.
I've found that changeover point in practice to be about 7 mph with the new Panasonic unit, against my eZee motor internally geared for legality. For me on the most extreme climb section of 1 in 3.3, the Panasonic bike is far and away the better, the eZee bike a near death experience.
.
The peak power of the Panasonic unit is I believe under 400W while the "new" Ezee motor has a peak power of over 700W. Given a reasonably fit rider who can contribute enough power to keep the motor in it's peak power band (about 8-12 mph for the new Torq 2) the Ezee is bound to be quicker up hills simply because there is more power available. In theory with a total weight of 110kg (Bike + rider + spare batteries), a rider short term contribution of 350 watts and a gradient of 20% the Panasonic will manage 7.1 mph and the Ezee 10.8 mph. The figure for the Ezee is roughly in line with my Mk1 Torq which consumes around 750W at 10mph on a 20%. The newer lower geared motor should perform better though.
By comparison the same 350W rider output will get a 7kg unpowered racer up the same hill at 5mph while a professional athlete should be able to generate 500W for a short while which will get his/her leaner body and lightweight bike up the same hill at 7mph.
The key point with the Ezee is that the rider needs to contribute enough to keep it above about 8 mph otherwise the bike will stall, this is a lot easier with the new Torq than the original but still needs a reasonably strong rider. Wai Wong Ching should have no problems though and he obviously knows this.
While the participants of this event will undoubtedly get up hills at least as fast as the athletes they will not be able to come close to the 30+ mph that the athletes continuously maintain on the level, and the considerably faster speeds they attain downhill. To do so would require a very different design of bicycle and an element of tactical teamwork, not to mention a high degree of physical fitness!
N.B. My comparison was for the current 423 watt Panasonic unit with the old Torq motor of nominal 576 watts peak power.
A query Ian. I know the motor used in the original F series was a near 700 watt unit, but is the later eZee design motor definitely 700 watts peak?
I'm surprised at your Torq 1 consumption figure, A to B measuring far lower and around that 576 watts.
.
A query Ian. I know the motor used in the original F series was a near 700 watt unit, but is the later eZee design motor definitely 700 watts peak?
I'm surprised at your Torq 1 consumption figure, A to B measuring far lower and around that 576 watts.
.
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Ian, I've just been doing some rechecking and I think there has to be something wrong somewhere here.
I have previously recorded climb speeds without pedalling on a range of precisely measured hills/slopes on both Torq and Quando identical motors and calculations on exact weights with everything allowed for show the maximum net power at the wheel achieved as 478 watts. If the peak consumption on these motors is 700 watts, the efficiency is only 68%, an untenable figure.
The 576 watts peak I quoted indicates about 83% efficiency on my calculated net power, which would be quite normal.
.
I have previously recorded climb speeds without pedalling on a range of precisely measured hills/slopes on both Torq and Quando identical motors and calculations on exact weights with everything allowed for show the maximum net power at the wheel achieved as 478 watts. If the peak consumption on these motors is 700 watts, the efficiency is only 68%, an untenable figure.
The 576 watts peak I quoted indicates about 83% efficiency on my calculated net power, which would be quite normal.
.
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Tour of Britain – Stage 3 , eZee vs Kalkhoff on the same route Sept. 9th.
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so if you dont have either a eZee or a Kalkhoff you dont seem to count on this ride.
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I have always maintained that the Panasonic system is only for utility riding and originally designed for Japanese grand mothers.
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seems we have a big percentage of japanese grandmothers on this forum then
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Anyone else interested to join in this friendly riding event would be welcome.---------------------------------------------------------------------------
so will this friendly riding event see the whole group stay together and chatting as they ride, stopping off for a group picnic or pint in the pub,talking about whats going on in Big Brother and how nice the weather is ?
not many i think, i didnt agree with what went on at Presteigne as anyone can stick a rocket up their backside and be first..but apart from that everything else on that day seemed a great day out from all reviews of the day,...i may be wrong and you all will ride in a group and sing songs as you go..
of course this is only my opinion and sorry for my rant but im real fed up of this bickering......just "make us bikes please"
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Fun day out?
Keith
I can see your point of view and am probably in the minority , but I have registered and hope to enjoy a reasonably hard ride, but not a race. I could not possibly win and may not even finish, but all the arguments given here in the "its too difficult to attempt" vein are like saying that fun runners should not attempt marathons.
I hope to meet up with other riders, compare bikes and have some breaks during the ride. The "elite athletes" will have disappeared into the distance.
This event may undergo some changes in planning - less distance, circular route, less climbs, but the principle is fine with me. I live 188 miles from the start but, having an Ezee bike, the incentive of 50% off an many batteries as I can carry is the deciding factor, but not the only one. Its a pity other manufacturers do not put up a similar offer, but then the numbers may become unmanageable - maybe staggered starts depending on age, weight level of fitness - I reserve last place, or is that first off and hunted down by everybody???
Keith
I can see your point of view and am probably in the minority , but I have registered and hope to enjoy a reasonably hard ride, but not a race. I could not possibly win and may not even finish, but all the arguments given here in the "its too difficult to attempt" vein are like saying that fun runners should not attempt marathons.
I hope to meet up with other riders, compare bikes and have some breaks during the ride. The "elite athletes" will have disappeared into the distance.
This event may undergo some changes in planning - less distance, circular route, less climbs, but the principle is fine with me. I live 188 miles from the start but, having an Ezee bike, the incentive of 50% off an many batteries as I can carry is the deciding factor, but not the only one. Its a pity other manufacturers do not put up a similar offer, but then the numbers may become unmanageable - maybe staggered starts depending on age, weight level of fitness - I reserve last place, or is that first off and hunted down by everybody???
Keith
I can see your point of view and am probably in the minority ,
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no Conal you are not in the minority, you are in the majority and want a fun day out riding, and i really hope thats what happens and i hope im wrong...however if i turn up i will take that last place off you..
i will enter if we are all strung together on a long rope and with us all getting sponsorship should be able to raise a lot of cash for charity...
A to B's figure of 576 watts for the Torq is simply 16A x 36V, those being the specifications quoted in the manual. My figure of 750W is an approximation of my normal measured max hillclimbing current of 21A x 36V. This is possible as de-restricting removes the nominal 16A current limit which is why hillclimbing is so enhanced. I don't know the efficiency and I don't know the power at the wheel, however most online calculators estimate the total power required to give my often achieved hillclimbing performance to be about 1kW, perhaps 300W of which is coming from me (very short term). The knowledge that you need to get up at 9mph or not at all is great for boosting performance!
It's all rather academic as far as the ToB stage goes as Mr Ching will be riding a later Torq with a totally different motor with a rated input of 720W.
It's all rather academic as far as the ToB stage goes as Mr Ching will be riding a later Torq with a totally different motor with a rated input of 720W.
I don't know the latest motor's power Ian, but both my bikes are unrestricted and they add up as said to an absolute maximum of 478 watts net onto the road in optimum conditions.
If they really are eating 700 watts to do that, there's an awful lot of wasted power.
.
If they really are eating 700 watts to do that, there's an awful lot of wasted power.
.
the route
borrowed from a googled site
It may not be the Pyrenees or the Dolomites, but what this stage lacks in altitude it makes up for with terrain designed to test anaerobic thresholds and bike-handling skills. No long grinds turning the race into a chess game, but nasty steep hills which give you little time to draw breath before another one is thrown at you. Add to this narrow roads, and twists and turns through ancient countryside and villages.
The scenery though is beautiful with the route taking the riders through Somerset (famous for the Glastonbury Festival and Cider) and into Devon for the first ever coastal finish of the event. The route traverses two Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty (AONB) and a National Park. The riders may have little time to appreciate it though and had better allow time to buy postcards after the race if they want something to remember of it.
From Chard the first leg takes the peloton westward to Tiverton. En route the twisting country lanes of the Blackdown Hills AONB will provide the first E.O.N King of the Mountains challenge for the riders, Staple Hill at just 12km into the stage. By the time they hit Tiverton the riders will already be in Devon, and heading for South Molton, “Gateway to Exmoor”. South Molton, a picturesque market town with origins lie in Saxon times, is also the westernmost point of both the stage though not the race as a whole. That honour goes to Glasgow, the start of the stage 7.
A few miles north is the equally attractive village of North Molton where the race will encounter a grueling and tiring hill and the second E.ON King of the Mountains challenge, the North Molton Ridge at 94km.The reward for reaching the top of the hill will be stunning views across the Exmoor National Park. The race will then now be entering the second half of the route and heading back East. It will cross the open moorland of Exmoor and into the picturesque village of Withypool.
Withypool means “the pool in the river surrounded by willows”. Its historical associations include the fact that R.D.Blackmore wrote part of Lorna Doone in the bar of the Royal Oak Inn and during the 1940's General Eisenhower planned much of the D-Day landings in the Inn.
Unhappily there will be no time for a dip in aforementioned river, or grab a beer from the Inn, because a short, narrow, climb will take riders up on to the top of Exmoor. This will be familiar territory to last year’s protagonists as they revisit the village of Exford. The riders will follow part of last year’s route to Wheddon Cross the highest village on Exmoor at 250m (820ft) above Sea Level. This year, though, they will take a left towards Dunster, passing through the village of Timberscombe.
On reaching Dunster, just a few miles inland from the coast, the peloton will wind its way through this medieval village with Dunster Castle as a back drop. The route then starts back eastward parallel to the coast before angling sharply inland and into the Quantock Hills AONB, and the Cothelstone Hill KOM prime at 156km, by way of Williton and Bishops Lydeard.
From the last summit to the finish is about 30km or so. It’s hardly enough distance to make up the sort of damage the peloton suffered last year as Graham Jones, Route Director of the Tour of Britain, describes:
“In 2007 the South West stage of the Tour of Britain proved to be a decisive moment in the race and whilst it didn't decide the overall winner it certainly put an end to the aspirations of a large proportion of the field. I think that our visit to the South West on 9th September could have a similar effect. There are three classified King of the Mountains climbs, the first after only a handful of miles, and that sets the tone for the day. With 30km from the summit of the last climb to the finish there may be an opportunity for a small regrouping, but for many riders it may be too late to salvage their hopes of winning the 2008 Tour of Britain.”
With the Peloton back in Somerset, the riders will be on the home straight and on the stage’s flatter roads. At Bridgewater the peloton will have just 15km to go before the finish line at Marine Drive in Burnham-on-Sea, and a chance assess the day’s damage.
Stage Time Estimates:
0km Chard (START) 10:00
12km KOM Staple Hill 10:30
28km Hemyock 10:50
36km Willand 11:00
46km Tiverton 11:20
65km Witheridge 11:45
82km South Molton 12:10
94km KOM North Molton Ridge 12:30
106km Exford 12:45
125km Dunster 13:15
135km Williton 13:30
150km Bishops Lydeard 13:55
156km KOM Cothelstone Hill 14:00
168km Bridgewater 14:20
174km Dunball 14:30
178km Huntspill 14:35
185km Burnham-an-Sea (FINISH) 14:45
borrowed from a googled site
It may not be the Pyrenees or the Dolomites, but what this stage lacks in altitude it makes up for with terrain designed to test anaerobic thresholds and bike-handling skills. No long grinds turning the race into a chess game, but nasty steep hills which give you little time to draw breath before another one is thrown at you. Add to this narrow roads, and twists and turns through ancient countryside and villages.
The scenery though is beautiful with the route taking the riders through Somerset (famous for the Glastonbury Festival and Cider) and into Devon for the first ever coastal finish of the event. The route traverses two Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty (AONB) and a National Park. The riders may have little time to appreciate it though and had better allow time to buy postcards after the race if they want something to remember of it.
From Chard the first leg takes the peloton westward to Tiverton. En route the twisting country lanes of the Blackdown Hills AONB will provide the first E.O.N King of the Mountains challenge for the riders, Staple Hill at just 12km into the stage. By the time they hit Tiverton the riders will already be in Devon, and heading for South Molton, “Gateway to Exmoor”. South Molton, a picturesque market town with origins lie in Saxon times, is also the westernmost point of both the stage though not the race as a whole. That honour goes to Glasgow, the start of the stage 7.
A few miles north is the equally attractive village of North Molton where the race will encounter a grueling and tiring hill and the second E.ON King of the Mountains challenge, the North Molton Ridge at 94km.The reward for reaching the top of the hill will be stunning views across the Exmoor National Park. The race will then now be entering the second half of the route and heading back East. It will cross the open moorland of Exmoor and into the picturesque village of Withypool.
Withypool means “the pool in the river surrounded by willows”. Its historical associations include the fact that R.D.Blackmore wrote part of Lorna Doone in the bar of the Royal Oak Inn and during the 1940's General Eisenhower planned much of the D-Day landings in the Inn.
Unhappily there will be no time for a dip in aforementioned river, or grab a beer from the Inn, because a short, narrow, climb will take riders up on to the top of Exmoor. This will be familiar territory to last year’s protagonists as they revisit the village of Exford. The riders will follow part of last year’s route to Wheddon Cross the highest village on Exmoor at 250m (820ft) above Sea Level. This year, though, they will take a left towards Dunster, passing through the village of Timberscombe.
On reaching Dunster, just a few miles inland from the coast, the peloton will wind its way through this medieval village with Dunster Castle as a back drop. The route then starts back eastward parallel to the coast before angling sharply inland and into the Quantock Hills AONB, and the Cothelstone Hill KOM prime at 156km, by way of Williton and Bishops Lydeard.
From the last summit to the finish is about 30km or so. It’s hardly enough distance to make up the sort of damage the peloton suffered last year as Graham Jones, Route Director of the Tour of Britain, describes:
“In 2007 the South West stage of the Tour of Britain proved to be a decisive moment in the race and whilst it didn't decide the overall winner it certainly put an end to the aspirations of a large proportion of the field. I think that our visit to the South West on 9th September could have a similar effect. There are three classified King of the Mountains climbs, the first after only a handful of miles, and that sets the tone for the day. With 30km from the summit of the last climb to the finish there may be an opportunity for a small regrouping, but for many riders it may be too late to salvage their hopes of winning the 2008 Tour of Britain.”
With the Peloton back in Somerset, the riders will be on the home straight and on the stage’s flatter roads. At Bridgewater the peloton will have just 15km to go before the finish line at Marine Drive in Burnham-on-Sea, and a chance assess the day’s damage.
Stage Time Estimates:
0km Chard (START) 10:00
12km KOM Staple Hill 10:30
28km Hemyock 10:50
36km Willand 11:00
46km Tiverton 11:20
65km Witheridge 11:45
82km South Molton 12:10
94km KOM North Molton Ridge 12:30
106km Exford 12:45
125km Dunster 13:15
135km Williton 13:30
150km Bishops Lydeard 13:55
156km KOM Cothelstone Hill 14:00
168km Bridgewater 14:20
174km Dunball 14:30
178km Huntspill 14:35
185km Burnham-an-Sea (FINISH) 14:45
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excellant bit of reading that was..two things come to mind, the rope attached to the bike in front i will need to drag me up the hills as 4 batteries wont do i dont think, unless i tow a trailer with even more batteries, the rope also will act as a life link when i plumet over the edge...
and yes i can manage the finish time of 14.45......but it will be THE NEXT DAY....
Certainly sounds like a course for the Kalkhoff's and I would say well beyond the abilities of average Joe.
Hello everyone,
It would be good to have an update on this - there are only 3 days left to register for a battery.
Is it going ahead?
What date?
Who is the organiser - eZee or a 3rd party?
Restricted or unrestricted, standard or modified bikes?
What are the rules?
Those are the easy questions. More difficult are ones like:
Is it actually possible for an ordinary rider on an unmodified bike to complete the course?
Nick
It would be good to have an update on this - there are only 3 days left to register for a battery.
Is it going ahead?
What date?
Who is the organiser - eZee or a 3rd party?
Restricted or unrestricted, standard or modified bikes?
What are the rules?
Those are the easy questions. More difficult are ones like:
Is it actually possible for an ordinary rider on an unmodified bike to complete the course?
Nick
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what about a souped up tork ?..oh sorry "standard" tork
Assuming that your 8FUN motors are similar to the new eZee motor and current limit is set to about 21 Amps then peak power would be just at the point when the current limit comes off. That's about 18 mph. Below that speed, power and efficiency are reduced (at full throttle). In fact at 478 watts the eZee motor would be doing about 10 mph at 68 % efficiency (ebikes.ca sim).
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