The dongle re-visited

Gubbins

Esteemed Pedelecer
In all the scenarios described in this post, some a bit long winded dictionarial (I made that word up cos I don't understand half of the words used by some) I wonder.. At what point is someone going to say "hey that is a e-bike let's have it tested in case it's illegal! "
I think this is all a bit OTT , especially as the police have more than enough to do with limited resources as it is. I was stopped recently (off road) by a Bobby looking for information about a break in nearby and he had no idea my bike was electric, and after a brief conversation it transpired that he didn't know anything about the lega/none legal aspects. But, I still don't see why I can't have mine boosted for off road use, and then disable it when on road. Now I am sure that Tom will come up with an essay using his superior command of English explaining why that would make me a hardened criminal, when everyone with no exception chooses what laws to disregard..
 
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trex

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May 15, 2011
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As soon as one takes a de-restricted bike into the public arena, one is in breach of the law so how that bike is ridden becomes somewhat irrelevant. The irresponsibility is in using that unregistered, untaxed, non-compliant motor vehicle. Isn't that enough?

Tom
unlike driving a car that has failed MOT, I could not find any traffic offence whose definition matches a derestricted bike.
http://www.bikehub.co.uk/featured-articles/cycling-and-the-law/
https://www.gov.uk/highway-code-penalties/penalty-table
https://www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82

whilst there are example cases dealing with derestricting a motobike, there has never been a known case that derestricting a legal e-bike will turn it automatically into a motobike. That does not stop the dongle to be significant in case of accident, but we are looking at the borderline of what's legal and what's not based only on the presence of a dongle, not using it, just its presence.

If the offence is not defined, hence unpunishable under current legislation, then where is the criminality in this?
 
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tillson

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May 29, 2008
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unlike driving a car that has failed MOT, I could not find any traffic offence whose definition matches a derestricted bike.

https://www.gov.uk/highway-code-penalties/penalty-table
https://www.gov.uk/rules-for-cyclists-59-to-82

whilst there are example cases dealing with derestricting a motobike, there has never been a known case that derestricting a legal e-bike will turn it automatically into a motobike. That does not stop the dongle to be significant in case of accident, but we are looking at the borderline of what's legal and what's not based only on the presence of a dongle, not using it, just its presence.

If the offence is not defined, hence unpunishable under current legislation, then where is the criminality in this?
I'm sorry but you are so wrong that it is difficult if not impossible to correct you. In order to fully understand the issues you need to gain some additional knowledge. You have both embarrassed and made a fool of yourself with this post.

As soon as you derestrict the bike, it falls outside the regulations by account of its maximum assist speed. It ceases to be a bicycle in the eyes if the law, end of storey. It doesn't matter how carefully you ride it, or the fact that there isn't an offence of derestricting a bicycle, it simply ceases to be a bike and all of the easements in law go with it.

This does not instantly make it illegal to use as long as you type approve it, register, insure, fit number plates, wear a motorcycle helmet and have the appropriate licence. If you don't comply, you are exposed to prosecution to any or all of the above.

There not being a specific offence of deresricting an ebikevis a stupid and immature excuse to use one.
 

trex

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Tillson, there is no need to insult my intelligence. In the absence of prosecution, there is no way to determine that your way of thinking is more right than mine or for that matter, a bike with EN15194 is a legal bike or not (and there are also lots of bikes with CoCs rather than proper EN15194 certificates and riding a converted bike - impossible to self certificate, is worse than having a dongle ).
A few posters here are saying 'your bike will be crushed' etc because it has a dongle. I am saying, there is no law against having one. If you can cite a regulation to the contrary, please do. I spent hours looking for it, I could not find one.
 
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Wicky

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Thankfully the police show some common sense discretion in the application of the law - I go back to the time I was knocked off my naughtily unrestricted 17bhp 125 motorcycle without L plates. (some here would say entirely my fault - but he was coming out of a one-way street the wrong way). Thankfully the driver of the car was prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
 
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tillson

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May 29, 2008
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Tillson, there is no need to insult my intelligence. In the absence of prosecution, there is no way to determine that your way of thinking is more right than mine or for that matter, a bike with EN15194 is a legal bike or not (and there are also lots of bikes with CoCs rather than proper EN15194 certificates and riding a converted bike - impossible to self certificate, is worse than having a dongle ).
A few posters here are saying 'your bike will be crushed' etc because it has a dongle. I am saying, there is no law against having one. If you can cite a regulation to the contrary, please do. I spent hours looking for it, I could not find one.
There is no need for a law yo say you can't derestrict your bike, you can. But if you do, it no longer fits the definition ( in law) of an electrically assisted bike. It therefore falls into motor vehicle law and legislation. Which is fine if you are prepared to spend the money in order to comply.
 

trex

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look at the challenges against the parking fines. It's the same with many other situations where possession isn't criminalized until it's made into proper law, like carrying a knife in the street instead of in your car. What makes a bike legal is the EN15194 certificate, otherwise, you are on your own if you want to claim that your bike is an EAPAC. If I fit a dongle to my bike, I void the certificate but my situation is no worse than not having a certificate. Should anyone riding an ebike without a certificate get out of the road because it's not legal? No.
I have a BBS01 with EN15194 approval, not monster motor, but I derestrict the speed limiter on my bike. I don't see myself as a criminal, I don't even have a parking fine in the last 30-35 years.
 
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Gubbins

Esteemed Pedelecer
Now here's what I still don't understand.. In all areas of motor sport vehicles are not allowed on public roads unless they comply with legislation. So to drive between events or stages you make it legal by adding or removing various bits and pieces. So why does that not apply to my bike? Add a bit for off road competition and remove it for on road...
 

tillson

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Now here's what I still don't understand.. In all areas of motor sport vehicles are not allowed on public roads unless they comply with legislation. So to drive between events or stages you make it legal by adding or removing various bits and pieces. So why does that not apply to my bike? Add a bit for off road competition and remove it for on road...
There is nothing wrong in what you say. Derestricting for off road use is perfectly legal (as long as it is used off road as far as the law is concerned).
 

Gubbins

Esteemed Pedelecer
There is nothing wrong in what you say. Derestricting for off road use is perfectly legal (as long as it is used off road as far as the law is concerned).
So, riding with a dongle fitted but deactivated is ok then? And, if so who is to know whether or not it was active when the bike is checked /examined.. For whatever reason?
 

tillson

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So, riding with a dongle fitted but deactivated is ok then? And, if so who is to know whether or not it was active when the bike is checked /examined.. For whatever reason?
I'm not entirely certain about that. I suspect that the device would need removing completely. Perhaps someone else can answer that.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
look at the challenges against the parking fines. It's the same with many other situations where possession isn't criminalized until it's made into proper law, like carrying a knife in the street instead of in your car. What makes a bike legal is the EN15194 certificate, otherwise, you are on your own if you want to claim that your bike is an EAPAC. If I fit a dongle to my bike, I void the certificate but my situation is no worse than not having a certificate. Should anyone riding an ebike without a certificate get out of the road because it's not legal? No.
Trex, I have read that piece several times and you seem to be scratching around, searching for some kind of justification for contraptions not permitted in the UK.

You need to stop thinking bike because 'de-restricted' infers that bike is no longer an applicable description. Just accept that all other motorised vehicles must comply with certain specific legislation. Depending on how you wish to compartmentalise the contraption which can no longer be described as a bike, nor an EAPC, there will be compliance issues to overcome. OTHERWISE, THE CONTRAPTION IS ILLEGAL for use on road or in any area to which the public has access.

It really doesn't matter whether it's soldering shunts or fitting dongles, any modifications which substantially alter the electrical characteristics from standard, legally-compliant fare to something more powerful remove that bike from the easements the law provides for EAPCs.

I hope that helps.

Tom
 

trex

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there is simply no case to answer if you are not in one of these situations: causing an accident with your bike, drunk while in control of your bike (you don't have to ride it, pushing it is enough), or not in control of your bike while riding, the police won't do a thing. This is practical law as I understood it after reading about the subject on 100+ websites, not my guesswork. Tom, I don't have a dongle, much too value conscious to buy a Bosch bike and I don't solder my controller either, I pushed up the speed limit and use my gears .
 
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This is practical law as I understood it after reading about the subject on 100+ websites, not my guesswork. .
Trex... as I'm sure your internet research has proven, there hasn't been a test case yet. Which is why there are no examples. Why don't you try calling a solicitor. We have, which is why we're not selling dongle, not telling people how they can de-restrict our bikes, and we won't be allowing UK dealers to by 350w bikes next year when KTM release sPedelcs for the German market.

I'm frankly shocked UK companies are selling dongles and sPedelecs to UK customers because with the advice we've had is pretty clear. These dealers are opening themselves up to pretty high potential legal costs should one of their devices or bikes be involved in an accident.

Go and plow your bike into some guys expensive car and see what happens.

Then you can be the test case, and if you're right and the police won't care your riding an illegal vehicle that isn't allowed on UK roads, then we'll all back off and be proved wrong.
 

Gubbins

Esteemed Pedelecer
I'm not entirely certain about that. I suspect that the device would need removing completely. Perhaps someone else can answer that.
Well now
The word dongle seems to be being used describe a few different things, as I perceive it to mean the small dongle thingy that plugs in to alter the speed signals sent from the wheel. So remove this small item which is easy to do from a wired headphone extension and you are ok. Plug it back in and your not ok. It can't be just adding the wiring makes it illegal or all home made e-bikes would be unroadworty by default.
 

trex

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Trex... as I'm sure your internet research has proven, there hasn't been a test case yet. Which is why there are no examples. Why don't you try calling a solicitor. We have, which is why we're not selling dongle, not telling people how they can de-restrict our bikes, and we won't be allowing UK dealers to by 350w bikes next year when KTM release sPedelcs for the German market.

I'm frankly shocked UK companies are selling dongles and sPedelecs to UK customers because with the advice we've had is pretty clear. These dealers are opening themselves up to pretty high potential legal costs should one of their devices or bikes be involved in an accident.

Go and plow your bike into some guys expensive car and see what happens.

Then you can be the test case, and if you're right and the police won't care your riding an illegal vehicle that isn't allowed on UK roads, then we'll all back off and be proved wrong.
why do you think that Tim (@50 cycles) and Martin@e-bikeshop do not take legal advice?
 
why do you think that Tim (@50 cycles) and Martin@e-bikeshop do not take legal advice?
If they had, I'd be surprised because ours was very very clear.

We can't even tell people where they can by dongles for KTM bikes incase it comes back to us in the event something ever goes to court.

if they've had different advice, then thats possible, but there is no way I'd be risking my business selling products that aren't legally allowed to be used on the UK roads.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Now here's what I still don't understand.. In all areas of motor sport vehicles are not allowed on public roads unless they comply with legislation. So to drive between events or stages you make it legal by adding or removing various bits and pieces. So why does that not apply to my bike? Add a bit for off road competition and remove it for on road...
Phil,

Perhaps you haven't been a member long enough to remember some of the historic discussion about what constitutes public highway and what may be considered off-road.

The legal definitions make 'off-road' rather difficult to pin down. A bicycle can be used in lots of areas besides the public highway whereas other forms of transport are quite restricted or in some cases prohibited entirely from certain areas. Obviously, an illegal contraption, i.e. something which is not a bicycle nor an EAPC and is not registered as any kind of motor vehicle may not be used on the road. Neither may it be used on any land to which the public has free access without specific permission of the landowner.

The consequence of this is that illegal contraptions are therefore disallowed on cycle paths, forest trails, canal towpaths, pavements and so on. Those people who ride quad bikes, Segways and similar machines must comply with legislation otherwise their use may be illegal and where members of the public are allowed to ride these machines, I think insurance is mandatory. If not, it certainly should be, especially after what happened to Jimi Heselden up near Boston Spa a few years ago!

I am not a lawyer so please don't accept my word on what constitutes highway or off-road. To be certain, proper legal advice should be sought but you have to understand that any kind of 'dongle' attached to an EAPC removes that machine from the freedoms associated with bicycles. If you were unlucky enough to injure someone while using any de-restricted machine, any insurance would be null and void if the matter came to light. That's in addition to the obvious offences committed.

Tom