The dongle re-visited

[Gubbins]

Let's be clear; the principle is exactly the same. You bought a 'dongle' because you were not content to be constrained by the law applicable to EAPCs.

I like to consider myself a decent, law-abiding member of society {moderated} Only the degree of criminality is matter for debate; not the principle. Given your stance on these issues and your self-righteous indignation towards those who strive to abide by the law, I don't expect for a moment that you will understand why you are wrong.

Tom

Are there moderators on here? This is particularly offensive post and should be removed ASAP

 

[oldtom]

The law only allows 200w.

You're really scraping the barrel now with your petty defence of your criminal activity D8veh. You know perfectly well the position of 250w ebikes in law. Each of us is a citizen of the EU therefore entitled to rely upon such legislation in accordance with the treaty of Rome.

Your situation is completely different from mine however.

Tom

 

[rsscott]

Let's keep it friendly people. It's fine to disagree, not fine to insult one another. This will be my only warning, 'time-outs' will be issued if it is not heeded.

 

[oldtom]

This is particularly offensive post and should be removed ASAP

So Phill, you find that offensive! What you're saying is that you feel entitled to do whatever you feel like doing and sod the law and all those decent people who abide by it. Then, when your views are challenged, making you feel a little uncomfortable, somehow you discover sensitivities which are offended. Get real!

Tom

 

[bonerp]

I'm frankly amazed at what I have read here. Riding a bike over 15mph is hardly making you a ronnie biggs style criminal imho. You can do more damage in a car at 10mph than a bike doing 20. Keep it in perspective. Whether the law says x, y or z, its regularly broken by every car driver on the planet but we all do it when we think its safe to do so - what is safe?? Imagine the damage a car can do at just 40mph....would you jump out of a car at that speed? Of course not, but just a kerb separates you from pedestrians....
Its like saying all cars should be restricted to 70. How many of you derestricted a 50cc fizzy back in the day....

 

[Gubbins]

So Phill, you find that offensive! What you're saying is that you feel entitled to do whatever you feel like doing and sod the law and all those decent people who abide by it. Then, when your views are challenged, making you feel a little uncomfortable, somehow you discover sensitivities which are offended. Get real!

Tom

Yep
All my sensibilities are now thoroughly offended! Many thanks for making this possible. But I still want one, even though I know I am being really naughty, I just can't help myself.

 

[D8ve]

The posters have said.
Here is the law. Quotes particular sections.
If you break the law you are committing an (multiple)offence's.
You can then suffer consequences.
Prosecution or not claiming damages.

It's been pointed out if you want a moped, buy one.

The law is an ass but it is the law.

200/250 watts makes anyone a fast cyclist.
Most commuters go much slower. I pass them all the time on my manual bike.
You can ride an electric bike very fast with a hill or sweat.

So 15 mph is slow but accidents are more dangerous the faster you go (1/2mV*V)
Electric bikes are a special case and make cycling easy. If we respect the limits and play nice we can have a good time.

The above is not meant to offend but be a summation of my view.

 

[Gubbins]

I thoroughly agree! Most of what I said here was a wind up.... It's a weakness I have.... One of many! lol

 

[SRS]

As far as I recall, the use of a switch to enable an 'off road mode' had been specifically mentioned as being against the rules.

An off road switch is against the rules as I understand.
An on the road switch is not.

 

[oldtom]

Electric bikes are a special case and make cycling easy. If we respect the limits and play nice we can have a good time.

I agree entirely with that sentiment D8ve. I'm grateful that legislation exists which permits me to continue cycling despite health issues, not just on roads but also on towpaths, forest trails and many other places from which most other two-wheeled machines are prohibited.

Those members of this forum and that other more international place who, euphemistically, continually try to 'push the envelope' only seem able to so do by breaking the law. It's not new; it has all been done before, ever since EAPCs first became popular and there's nothing clever about it.

The shame of it all is that the latest EAPCs are so capable in terms of hill-climbing ability and power endurance that anyone unsatisfied with the level of performance really needs another form of transport. The biggest threat to the privileges extended to me and others with EAPCs is from those who not only blatantly break the laws applicable, but then brag about it and publicise the fact, attempting somehow to shift the paradigm so as to gain acceptance of their non-compliance.

Tom

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

just to clear up a couple of your post Trex.

in which way that removing the speed limit with a dongle makes the bike illegal?
The bike has EN15194.

with the dongle fitted the bike doesn't have EN15194... you've modified it. Removed the cut out that legally needs to be there.

I believe that 1 (you can't travel with assistance at over 15.5 mph without insurance and helmet) is correct.

speed it irrelavant to this debate. its not about the speed you're doing or not doing, its the fact that the assist doesn't cut out at 15.5mph.

If you were hit by another vehicle while riding at 15mph, the fitting of the dongle is not of any material importance because you are not using it.

an eBike that doesn't cut out at 15.5mph cant be used on the roads even if you never go above 15.5mph.

 

[Gubbins]

just to clear up a couple of your post Trex.



with the dongle fitted the bike doesn't have EN15194... you've modified it. Removed the cut out that legally needs to be there.



speed it irrelavant to this debate. its not about the speed your doing or not doing, its the fact that the assist doesn't cut out at 15.5mph.



an eBike that doesn't cut out at 15.5mph cant be used on the roads even if you never go above 15.5mph.

Yes
And the downside of all of this is that your battery will run out a lot faster...

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You're really scraping the barrel now with your petty defence of your criminal activity D8veh. You know perfectly well the position of 250w ebikes in law. Each of us is a citizen of the EU therefore entitled to rely upon such legislation in accordance with the treaty of Rome.

Your situation is completely different from mine however.

Tom

Yes, I do know the position in Law of 250w bikes. They're illegal. What they do in France and Germany is irrelevant. As Col said, if you have an accident on a 250w bike, regardless of whos fault it is, the other party could blame you for riding an illegal bike. If it goes to court, the judge will use the UK law as the basis for decision. The result would be the same on a 250w bike as a 500w one. The only difference is that the Police might decide to prosecute if you have a 500w one, as we have a sort of immunity against prosecution for 250w bikes, but that doesn't make them legal.

 

[Backin5]

I'm not talking about getting stopped by police, I'm talking about unexpected accidents that end in big trouble for the bike owner and the whole UK ebike industry. I hope we've all seen this:

Germany, as often is the case, is ahead of us in this. No amount of smart ar$e comments or self delusional 'it'll never happen to me' attitude will help if the worst does indeed happen.

At least in the old days the pedestrians had a chance of hearing you coming on a souped up hairdryer.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I'm frankly amazed at what I have read here. Riding a bike over 15mph is hardly making you a ronnie biggs style criminal imho. You can do more damage in a car at 10mph than a bike doing 20. Keep it in perspective. .

I'm afraid with this statement, you're showing a complete lack of understanding of what riding an illegal eBike is actually about.

Its not about speed. Anyone can ride a normal bike well above the 15.5mph, and not break any laws. My average speed on my commute home (16miles) is over 20mph and thats on my road bike. (Its actually considerably faster than my eBike, now I'm getting fitter)

Its not about speed, its the fact that the vehicle you're on isnt allowed to be legally used on the UK roads even if you only ride at 5mph. Should you be involved in an accident, you will be held legally responsible for that accident even if in reality you didn't cause it.

I suggest you do a bit more reading into the subject.

 

[Gubbins]

I didn't really intend to open this can of worms, and have learned a lot that I didn't know! I just wonder what the punishment might be for such a transgression? If its anything like someone who is unlicensed, uninsured and driving a defective untaxed and untested vehicle.. £100 fine and a slap on the wrist!

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I didn't really intend to open this can of worms, and have learned a lot that I didn't know! I just wonder what the punishment might be for such a transgression? If its anything like someone who is unlicensed, uninsured and driving a defective untaxed and untested vehicle.. £100 fine and a slap on the wrist!

the punishment isn't really the thing you should be worried about.

imagine if you're riding along at 10mph minding your own business, some guy driving along side you, overtakes you, but misjudges things slightly, causing him to clip your shoulder. You get knocked off, and your bike is a write off, he swerves and takes out 3 cars causing thousands of £s of damage to 4 cars and your bike.

Your bike will be crushed because its being illegally used on the road, so you've lost the money you invested in it. No come back.

You'll be chased by all the insurance companies because you riding the illegal vehicle will be used by them to claim that you caused the accident.

Plus the case will be the first one to involve an eBike, so it'll be splashed over all the press (cycling and transport) and will be held up as an example as to why eBikes should be banned, or treated like mopeds.

So yes, the £100.00 fine and a slap on the risk is one risk. But the implications of an incident could be massive you for as the individual involved, the shop that sold you the bike, and the industry.

Anyone who just thinks they are just "speeding" doesn't understand what they are doing, and the wider implications.

 

[RobF]

I Should you be involved in an accident, you will be held legally responsible for that accident even if in reality you didn't cause it.

This is no more than scaremongering.

Who is going to rebuild the smashed bike, test it, discover it's illegal and then go to all the bother of attempting to establish a reverse liability?

It's just not going to happen, there are far too many hurdles at every stage.

If the dongle is broken or lost in the accident, that's the end of it.

Even if the bike is rebuilt and tested there are so many challenges that could be made.

In reality, a check may be made to see if the make and model you were riding meets the regulations.

We are talking about dongles here, so the bike would pass such a check

I agree a factory spec or kit monster ebike might land you in bother.

 

[trex]

...
imagine if you're riding along at 10mph minding your own business, some guy driving along side you, overtakes you, but misjudges things slightly, causing him to clip your shoulder. You get knocked off, and your bike is a write off, he swerves and takes out 3 cars causing thousands of £s of damage to 4 cars and your bike.

Your bike will be crushed because its being illegally used on the road, so you've lost the money you invested in it. No come back.

You'll be chased by all the insurance companies because you riding the illegal vehicle will be used by them to claim that you caused the accident.

Plus the case will be the first one to involve an eBike, so it'll be splashed over all the press (cycling and transport) and will be held up as an example as to why eBikes should be banned, or treated like mopeds.

So yes, the £100.00 fine and a slap on the risk is one risk. But the implications of an incident could be massive you for as the individual involved, the shop that sold you the bike, and the industry.

Anyone who just thinks they are just "speeding" doesn't understand what they are doing, and the wider implications.

total nonsense.

So if I run over a guy on e-bike doing 8mph on a hill, shall I look to see if he's got a dongle on his bike? or his reflectors have appropriate BS markings?
we need to look at contributing factors in such cases, any lawyer will know that or have you forgotten the test of reasonableness?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

the punishment isn't really the thing you should be worried about.

imagine if you're riding along at 10mph minding your own business, some guy driving along side you, overtakes you, but misjudges things slightly, causing him to clip your shoulder. You get knocked off, and your bike is a write off, he swerves and takes out 3 cars causing thousands of £s of damage to 4 cars and your bike.

Your bike will be crushed because its being illegally used on the road, so you've lost the money you invested in it. No come back.

You'll be chased by all the insurance companies because you riding the illegal vehicle will be used by them to claim that you caused the accident.

Plus the case will be the first one to involve an eBike, so it'll be splashed over all the press (cycling and transport) and will be held up as an example as to why eBikes should be banned, or treated like mopeds.

So yes, the £100.00 fine and a slap on the risk is one risk. But the implications of an incident could be massive you for as the individual involved, the shop that sold you the bike, and the industry.

Anyone who just thinks they are just "speeding" doesn't understand what they are doing, and the wider implications.

This could very easily happen with the bikes you're selling. The consequences would be the same, except no police prosecution.. The bikes you're selling are illegal too. AFAIK, there's been no test case yet. The whole situation with ebikes is still a can of worms. It would be best for everybody to keep their mouths shut and their heads down.