The dongle re-visited

[tillson]

trex, I will list three things which must be complied with if an ebike is to be considered a bicycle and as such the rider will enjoy all of the many freedoms which cycling brings.

Under the max weight limit.

A 250 Watt rated motor.

Restricted to a defined maximum assist speed.

There may be others, but that's not relevant.

If you exceed anyone of the above, it ceases to benefit from pedal bicycle legislation. That's the beginning and the end of it. There is no discussion.

I don't say I agree with it, that is the way the law is.

If you want to use a machine which does not comply with the legislation , it's for you to decide whether you are a responsible adult and do it properly, or if you would rather skulk around outside of the law. It matters not to me where you see yourself, but I do object to people actively boasting (not necessarily you) about their illegal bikes, because they will eventually fcu£ it up for all of us.

Just do what you need to find fulfillment, and if that's riding a derestricted electric bike, just keep quiet about it.

 

[oldtom]

if we put this matter to a poll, we shall see what the majority thinks.

What is your opinion about people who ride a bike fitted with a dongle?

1. I report them
2. I don't give a damn

And that will prove......??

Can't you see Trex how ridiculous that kind of posturing is? If you are seeking to garner support for something that everyone should by now understand is illegal, then it really doesn't matter how much support for your premise there is. The matter of de-restricting EAPCs makes them illegal as has been pointed out untold times.

Am I missing something here.....something that you know which alters the facts which you seem unable or unwilling to understand?

Tom

 

[SRS]

The real risk is that some tearaway will kill someone and hasty blanket legislation will cripple or ban ebikes so that the government will be seen to be taking action. Then we will all have expensive junk. A little motorbike must make more sense than a big ebike .

Motor vehicles have been killing people for decades. The odd cyclist haseven been know to kill a child.

These forms of transport have not been banned.

Why should you think that ebikes would betreated any differently?

 

[Backin5]

Yawn. I'm with KTM in this one - use of ebikes is growing, so it stands to reason that we are going to see more selfish speed freaks (sadly I fall into this group) who aren't satisfied until they see 30 ish mph out of these things. I see threads about increasing speed time and time again on ES and whirlpool, 48v, etc.

We have to start self policing this guys, not bickering. As the saying goes, it's all ok until somebody loses a testicle.

If we don't self police, then after a few mangled accidents and Daily Heil headlines, we will get squashed by legislation.

 

[D8ve]

Is it about time this thread is locked?
The illegality is clearly stated. The contempt of the law is clear even if shared.
The hyperbole is hyper.

 

[trex]

...
Am I missing something here.....something that you know which alters the facts which you seem unable or unwilling to understand?

Tom

this argument about the dongle is not new. Previously, I was dead set against the dongle when Martin started to sell them last year. Since, I changed side soon after I converted my current bike with the BBS01. My old SWX motor did not go over 16mph while I can push the BBS01 easily to 20mph, not because the BBS01 is much more powerful than the SWX but because it's a crank drive. I think we all need to take things into perspective. There was a thread a couple of years ago about the use of the throttle. Same thing, some say it's illegal (if it gets your bike over 6mph), your bike will be crushed if you are caught with a throttle riding in Europe. Of course, no bike has been crushed. I accept that the throttle isn't same thing as a dongle, but there are similarities in law, because the legislation (we must make the difference between the law and legislation here, legislation is practical law) is ill defined.

 

[oldtom]

this argument about the dongle is not new.

Trex, I feel embarrassed at these now pathetic attempts of yours to make a case for something indefensible.

Have you never heard the expression, 'When you're in a hole and wish to extricate yourself, stop digging!'?

Tom

 

[trex]

Tom, have you ridden a derestricted (previously legal) crank drive? I can assure you it does not feel like a motobike.

 

[SRS]

On a 250w machine, the dongle merely prevents the bike from becoming a 20kg dead weight at 15mph whilst you are riding.

Yes, you can go a bit faster with one but ultimately your maximum speed is dictated by your legs and your level of fitness. You will never go faster that a decent cyclist on a road bike anyway.

I see no point in a cycle that suddenly doubles in weight soon after you get it moving. Its just a wind up and makes the bike unpleasant to ride if you actually wish to get somewhere on it.

If its unpleasant to ride it will not get used, thereby defeating the whole object of having the thing in the first place. The car then takes its place.

It may be fine is you just want to potter around in your retirement on a few local hills but not so good if you want it for some serious commuting.

Whilst I am on the subject, I completely agree with Eddies view in respect of the use of dongles off road.

 

[Gubbins]

I started this thread in genuine confusion over this issue, and I now realise that this had been discussed before, but what surprises me is the open hostility from the dire consequences if you do camp which I find hard to agree with.. Many thanks to all for your input.. Even though some of you seem to be settling old scores. I think my way to go will be to buy one and try it.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

These forms of transport have not been banned.

Why should you think that ebikes would betreated any differently?

no one is saying they should be banned.....

they should be treated like the motorbikes they essentially are... ie you should have to take a test, wear a helmet and have it registered.

 

[Wicky]

So why not not import the 2015 KTM speed pedalecs and register them ready to sell… as for the rest that is the the purchaser to comply with as per the motorcycle retail field.

Otherwise folk can just order them directly from abroad or just hop on a ferry to the Hook-of-Holland and buy what ever they want.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

we've joined BEBA, with the express intention of getting something sorted, to make it possible to use these legally in the UK. If they aren't going to make it possible to use them in the UK, then the only option is to actually stop people selling them. But its got to be better for everyone to actually create legislation to allow them to be used.

The current situation is good for no one... and the people its actually worst for are the individuals who are buying these bikes who don't even realise the potential liability they are taking on, when shops sell them bikes they really shouldn't be.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

My neighbour was out on his electric scooter, which doesn't have pedals. He was riding on the pavement when the police first saw him, but he was on the road when they stopped him. They gave him a section 59 notice and told him that if they saw him on it again, they'd crush it. No mention was made of driving without licence, insurance or MOT, neither did they mention any points on his licence. They just said that that type of vehicle was not allowed. I suspect that they would deal with an illegal bike in the same way. Maybe that's why we can't find any prosecutions.

 

[Wicky]

But as mentioned before there were plenty of folk riding around on derestricted FSIE mopeds, and like myself on a derestricted 17bhp learner m/c that didn't fill already overcrowded prisons - and that was before the time when police were replaced by automated number plate revenue generators.

I know of a 19 year old old (admittedly a daft lad led astray by his elders) riding a 105bhp 1000cc m/c that was easily derestricted from 33bhp by means of simply removing not easily externally visible carb inlet restrictors.

I understand where you are are coming from as a retailer acting by the letter of the law, but if you ever watched the 'The World's Fastest Indian' when Anthony Hopkins played Burt Monro riding his bike on the highway and was pulled over by the police - did you shout at the screen "ARREST THE CRIMINAL!' or did you cheer him on a maverick R&D tinkerer...

 

[EddiePJ]

So why not not import the 2015 KTM speed pedalecs and register them ready to sell… as for the rest that is the the purchaser to comply with as per the motorcycle retail field.

Otherwise folk can just order them directly from abroad or just hop on a ferry to the Hook-of-Holland and buy what ever they want.

I'm guessing that even if a manufacturer/importer/dealer did decide to do this, that the hoops that they would need to jump through to gain registration, would prove so expensive, that the bikes would probably no longer be a viable proposition.
And even if say an e-mtb for example was registered, you would instantly restrict the off road use to green lanes, and byways open to all traffic. It just wouldn't be worth it. The prospect of wearing an mc crash helmet doesn't appeal much either.

 

[Backin5]

The main difference to what has gone before, what is a new risk, is that electric bikes are much quieter than scooters and motorbikes, and they are allowed in places motorbikes aren't - cycle lanes, etc.

Did anybody bother to watch the German youtube item I posted a few pages back? My concern is we will start to see an emerging trend of much more serious injuries to both cyclists and pedestrians over the next few years as a result of this laissez faire attitude towards laws that are in place to keep us safe.

Maybe a good source of research material would be to look at the effect on pedestrian injuries that ungoverened pedlecs have had in China? Those guys have gone crazy for them over the last few years.

Edit to say, myself and the mrs spend a week in Bruge last New Year, and we took our old non assisted bikes. We were surprised to see 50cc scooters were allowed in the pushbike lanes. Well, I assumed they were there legally? This would suggest to me that perhaps, in that country at least, their nanny state thinks that the general public aren't going to end up like extras in Mad Max 3. Very different culture of cycling in Belgium though, to our ignorant mess.

I also notice a lot of Eastern European type migrant workers cycling in my home town, old and cheap FS mountain bikes seem de rigour. 9/10 ride on the pavement, probably because they don't trust our anti bike motorists.

 

[SRS]

no one is saying they should be banned.....

they should be treated like the motorbikes they essentially are... ie you should have to take a test, wear a helmet and have it registered.

Why should they should not be treated as a motorbike.

I own a motorbike, its motor starts to reduce its output at around 150mph not 15 mph. The only human power required is some flex from my wrist to get it moving.
It hasn't got pedals and I can't take it into my local cycle shop.

My Pedelec on the other hand is in anyones eye a bicycle with a minuscule motor attached. It requires my input via the pedals to move at all times, that is other than the down hill sections.

As far as I am concerned, the S class could be a significant tool to reduce the volume of traffic and associated pollution.
It could help reduce levels of obesity and pressures on the NHS. It could easily increase fitness amongst those open minded enough to give it a try.

Yes, prices need to come down and it would take years to convert some people away from cars but beneficial progress could be slowly made.

I agree a nominal third party insurance should be compulsory along with a small reg plate of some description. Many cyclists have insurance anyway, I do.

Forget the helmet, they are suited to motor bikes where rider heat is not generated.

All of the above could easily happen it it were not for the fact that the authorities have their heads permanently up their asses when it comes to anything that does not make them money.

We need someone with vision and a passion to change the way we think about local transport to fight our corner, at the moment, sadly we don't.

 

[Wicky]

Sounds like a catch 22 - Nobody registers them so there's no means (by the current system) of registering them… So they don't officially exist despite them as we know running around or sumfink.

I bought my legal KTM as it suits by needs as cycleways with pedestrians/ kids / dog walkers could be a bit much for bombing along at 15mph+ but I can understand folk travelling more exclusively on roads / or off-road going for a bit more oomph come what may.

What's needed is folk not to tell us what bad criminals shouldn't do (for merely sometimes contemplating) but to demonstrate what we should do on a properly performing pedelec and demonstrate how we could benefit by doing things by the book. ;-)

 

[oldtom]

Tom, have you ridden a derestricted (previously legal) crank drive? I can assure you it does not feel like a motobike.

Trex, that's yet another irrelevant, inconsequential statement you have made and I have now reached a point where, if you assured me the Pope is catholic, I'd seek a second opinion as well as search the internet for reassurance.

Tom