The dongle re-visited

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Hi KTM
An interesting and understandable viewpoint. But out in the real world 90‰ of cyclists easily pass me on the road, riding at at least 20mph (except on the hills of course) and I would like the option of spending up a bit when I think it's appropriate. With regards to the law everyone who uses a vehicle of some kind will break the law in some small way.

yes, and if they pass you and cause a car to swerve and take out a bus queue of children, it will be a tragic accident and the police will deal with it appropriately.

If you're riding an illegal vehicle, with no tax, mot, insurance etc etc... you will be 100% at fault, even if you are doing nothing else wrong and riding a 5mph. The law and peoples insurance companies will come down on you and the person you bought the bike from.

Its possible to use a 100mph car legally. Its 100% not possible to use an unrestricted bike legally. Thats the difference you need to understand.

 

[Gubbins]

you're all correct - of course.

We not saying, its not faster, more fun etc etc... and we're not even saying you'll get caught.

Or that being on one of these illegal bikes is actually any more dangerous than a normal bikes, being ridden fast.

What we're saying is that when (its inevitable) one is involved in an accident, the user is simply not going to have a leg to stand on because you'll be riding an illegal vehicle.

Think of it like driving drunk (stop thinking of it like speeding). Its illegal, but you could argue you're still safer than many who are driving sober. You could be obeying all of the other rules of the road, but should you be involved in a crash, even if its not your fault. IT WILL BE YOUR FAULT because you'll be breaking the law.

I know we all speed in cars etc etc... but this is not the same as that, and if you think it is you're really not understanding the laws you are breaking and the risks you are taking so you should probably do a lot more research before you stray onto the public highways and biways.

Driving whilst Drunk!! Really?

 

[trex]

yes, and if they pass you and cause a car to swerve and take out a bus queue of children, it will be a tragic accident and the police will deal with it appropriately.

If you're riding an illegal vehicle, with no tax, mot, insurance etc etc... you will be 100% at fault, even if you are doing nothing else wrong and riding a 5mph. The law and peoples insurance companies will come down on you and the person you bought the bike from.

Its possible to use a 100mph car legally. Its 100% not possible to use an unrestricted bike legally. Thats the difference you need to understand.

in which way that removing the speed limit with a dongle makes the bike illegal?
The bike has EN15194.
if the bike is re-tested with the dongle in place, it will fail but fooling the speed limiter is something not yet defined in law, so could not be illegal. It's a bit like buying 'legal highs'. Riding with assistance at over 15mph on public roads is illegal but if you have an accident while under 15mph with a dongle, I don't think you have broken any law.

 

[Gubbins]

in which way that removing the speed limit with a dongle makes the bike illegal?
The bike has EN15194.
if the bike is re-tested with the dongle in place, it will fail but fooling the speed limiter is something not yet defined in law, so could not be illegal. It's a bit like buying 'legal highs'. Riding with assistance at over 15mph on public roads is illegal but if you have an accident while under 15mph with a dongle, I don't think you have broken any law.

Does the law say you can't travel with assistance at over 15.5 mph, or, you can't have a bike that's capable of going over 15.5?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

To be classed as a bicycle, the power has to cur off at 25 km/h.

 

[trex]

Does the law say you can't travel with assistance at over 15.5 mph, or, you can't have a bike that's capable of going over 15.5?

I believe that 1 (you can't travel with assistance at over 15.5 mph without insurance and helmet) is correct.
If you were hit by another vehicle while riding at 15mph, the fitting of the dongle is not of any material importance because you are not using it.

 

[Gubbins]

I believe that 1 (you can't travel with assistance at over 15.5 mph without insurance and helmet) is correct.
If you were hit by another vehicle while riding at 15mph, the fitting of the dongle is not of any material importance because you are not using it.

And interestingly you could be riding your lightweight racer at 30 mph, be knocked off and killed yet remain entirely blameless

 

[Alan Quay]

The law is pretty clear that to remain classified as a bicycle, the power assist should cut off before 15.5 mph. If it does not, and you are involved in an accident, (or pulled by the police) you are not riding a bicycle. Doesn't matter what speed you are travelling at prior to the accident.

As I've said before on here, I make no moral judgement, just stating the facts.

 

[trex]

not quite. It's one thing to ride a non compliant bike, it's another thing to break the law.
So you get pulled in by the police not travelling in excess of 15.5mph under assistance.

How are they going to know that:

a) you've got a dongle?
b) the function of the dongle?
c) which law did you break?

 

[Gubbins]

not quite. It's one thing to ride a non compliant bike, it's another thing to break the law.
So you get pulled in by the police not travelling in excess of 15.5mph under assistance.

How are they going to know that:

a) you've got a dongle?
b) the function of the dongle?
c) which law did you break?

Especially if you can turn it off with the light switch!

 

[Alan Quay]

not quite. It's one thing to ride a non compliant bike, it's another thing to break the law.
So you get pulled in by the police not travelling in excess of 15.5mph under assistance.

How are they going to know that:

a) you've got a dongle?
b) the function of the dongle?
c) which law did you break?

Just because you don't get caught, doesn't mean you weren't breaking the law.

 

[Gubbins]

Just because you don't get caught, doesn't mean you weren't breaking the law.

All those who have never broken the law put your hand up.. Except those that live in glass houses of course.... lol

 

[Alan Quay]

Especially if you can turn it off with the light switch!

As far as I recall, the use of a switch to enable an 'off road mode' had been specifically mentioned as being against the rules.

 

[oldtom]

Quite a few contributors here really need to take a good look at themselves and their skewed views of law and decency in society. Pedelecs members choosing which laws to respect and which to ignore are creating a monster. It's only a question of time before disaster strikes and that tragedy will have been brought about purely because of the encouragement and succour instead of condemnation shown to the criminal element who cannot or will not accept the limitations of EAPCs.

Tom

 

[Alan Quay]

All those who have never broken the law put your hand up.. Except those that live in glass houses of course.... lol

Don't get me wrong, I don't care what you or anyone else does in relation to this. I'm just pointing out what the law says so that you know where you stand.

 

[Gubbins]

What with comparisons to drunk driving and references to criminal elements, this has been a pleasant distraction so thank you all

 

[RobF]

Quite a few contributors here really need to take a good look at themselves and their skewed views of law and decency in society.
Tom

Steady on, Tom, I bought a dongle, I didn't rape a child.

Although I suppose I could wipe one out as I propel the Rose at a whopping 20mph.

 

[Gubbins]

Steady on, Tom, I bought a dongle, I didn't rape a child.

Although I suppose I could wipe one out as I propel the Rose at a whopping 20mph.

Ooooooh! You naughty naughty boy!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Quite a few contributors here really need to take a good look at themselves and their skewed views of law and decency in society. Pedelecs members choosing which laws to respect and which to ignore are creating a monster. It's only a question of time before disaster strikes and that tragedy will have been brought about purely because of the encouragement and succour instead of condemnation shown to the criminal element who cannot or will not accept the limitations of EAPCs.

Tom

well, I hope you're taking a hard look at yourself. I'd like to remind you that you have also chosen to ride an illegal bike. The law only allows 200w.

 

[oldtom]

Steady on, Tom, I bought a dongle, I didn't rape a child.

Let's be clear; the principle is exactly the same. You bought a 'dongle' because you were not content to be constrained by the law applicable to EAPCs.

I like to consider myself a decent, law-abiding member of society {moderated}. Only the degree of criminality is matter for debate; not the principle. Given your stance on these issues and your self-righteous indignation towards those who strive to abide by the law, I don't expect for a moment that you will understand why you are wrong.

Tom