Spot the difference...

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,282
2,252
69
Sevenoaks Kent
Thanks Flecc, that is the way I imagined all sensible consumers would react, I didn't ever think we would gain any real commercial advantage simply by sticking the flag on the frame. I am not that clever!

The best bit of marketing upside to the decision is probably this thread! :)

All the best

David
 
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robert44

Pedelecer
Mar 3, 2008
109
13
BS23
For comparable products of similar price, then a British connection would decide it for me.
Does a logo in this instance confer a commercial advantage? You decide!
 
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Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,282
2,252
69
Sevenoaks Kent
Thanks Robert that makes sense, so it may have been worth "flagging up" that we do have a British connection in being a British firm.

All the best

David
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
Seems to me that there is a lot of pedalling going on here, but we are not getting very far up the hill.

We live in a country where manufacturing, and manufacturing areas has been deliberately ignored in the interests of other sectors of the economy and regions of the country. The beneficiaries have been banks, insurance, financiers,landowners, advertisers, retailing, and large areas of South East England,Edinburgh etc.
The losers have been manufacturers, the skilled working class and large areas of the English North and Midlands, Wales and Western Scotland. Some of this decline has been the inevitable and welcome transfer of wealth to the `third world'. But much is the result of manipulation of exchange rates, government policy, and the ludicrous obsession with property ownership.

Instead of arguing about flags and symbols we should be debating how best to ensure the survival and expansion of local production. Perhaps all those fans of German cars might consider a British model. UK bike manufacturers/assemblers should be supported, even though the value of UK input may initially be small. Ask your MPs why the government doesn't intervene to support industry (railways), why investment is concentrated in London (Olympics/Crossrail/Thameslink/Heathrow/Fantasy Island?).

When we have a bike industry again (and all credit to Pashley, Brompton and a few others), then we can worry about what flag to stick on it.

Bill
Bill,I agree with some of your comments but I do think it important we hang onto our national symbols,our success stories sold into Asia are those which are particularly British-Scotch Whisky,Aston Martin and Bentley(before someone jumps,yes I know they are owned by the germans!),anything associated with our royal family,Brompton bikes,Mulberry handbags etc. All these products proudly display the 'made in UK or Britain or England)and sometimes the union jack logo.
Since the world recovered from WW2 the level of indebtedness by individuals,companies and countries has grown to unsubstainable levels and the crisis we find ourselves in was inevitable,the bank mortgage crisis was only the catalyst.
The labour government stitched us up for years ahead with off balance sheet borrowings(PFI scandal),the private equity companies bought ok companies,fattened them up-leveraged them and floated them-not their problem when debt become unserviceable,relaxation of the banking rules resulted in banks being over indebted and undercapitalised,private homes grew in cost so that young people overstretched themselves to get their own home,the list goes on. I watched a fleet of £20million plus yachts enter Barcelona harbour,all owned by private equity and bankers,easy money why try to make money by messy manufacturing or retailing!
But now we need to go back to basic principles,we need to make and trade things to make money but we are ill equipped both in terms of investment in equipment or people,there is now a shortage of cash to promote either.
The solution,but maybe too late-
1. Reduce corporation tax but put a tax on revenue(turnover),Ebay,Google,Starbucks want to earn out of the UK,they find it easy to avoid corporation tax but even a modest percentage on turnover they would be forced to pay.
2. Have a maximum debt level based on turnover that any company can be leveraged(debted),that would stop all this highly leveraging.
Dave
Kudoscycles
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
I didn't ever think we would gain any real commercial advantage simply by sticking the flag on the frame. I am not that clever!

All the best

David
Im sorry David, I dont mean to be rude, but honestly......there is only so much ROFLMAO'ing one woman can do in one day.....so I will leave it at that.....

lynda :)
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
Lynda... Wait for the ROFPMSL, lol


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Dont worry Dave...no chance of that............

and quite frankly its usually not really funny enough to warrant the inconvenience anyway...... ;)

Lynda :)
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
This thread has gone on so long that I thought it prudent to check out the law and advise accordingly.
The law concerned is the Trade Descriptions Act(TDA),1968 as kindly pointed out by Jazper 53.
The section-
TACKLING MISLEADING COUNTRY OF ORIGIN CLAIMS AND COUNTERFEIT GOODS.
Obviously I dont think counterfeit goods applies.
Under the act the country of origin is defined as the last location which caused substantial manufacturing or process changes,as Wisper bikes are assembled in Germany,then Germany would be deemed as the country of origin.
The act specifically outlaws actions or symbols which may mislead the country of origin.
Annex A,Point 2-specifically states 'are there any illustrations or symbols on the goods,labels,packaging or display material' which may mislead the country of origin.
Point 2 (c) further states 'any flags,emblems,or other images which are associated with a particular place' which may mislead the country of origin. It states examples such as a national flag,the Scottish thistle or a coat of arms.
It would seem to me that the act covers your use of the Union Jack on the goods (bicycles) and your use of the giant Union Jack on your exhibition stand(display material),that misleads the consumer into thinking that your bikes are made in the UK.
Please,voluntarily,get rid of these Union Jack flags unless you decide to make your bikes in the UK.
The act has teeth,its a criminal offence which can result in extreme cases imprisonment and fines up to £5000,this is not looking 'silly' now.
I suggest that you let your friends at Ebco and Batribike who also have similar misleading images to desist from their use.
Pashlee cycles,established 1926 proudly display the union jack logo on their website and should be given fair opportunity to take advantage of their legitimate country of origin.
Dave
Kudoscycles
 

jackhandy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 20, 2012
1,820
323
the Cornish Alps
Would anyone here be more inclined to buy a bikeP because it is sporting the Union Flag? Irrespective of where it is built. Or would it make you less likely to buy? We know all the arguments for and against the use so let's not go there again. It would simply be useful and interesting to know would you be more likely to buy any bike because it had a Union Flag in it's logo?

All the best

David[/QUOTE]

I would absolutely not touch with a bargepole, any bike sporting a union jack flag if it was not, at least, assembled over 'ere:
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
Thanks for looking into that Dave, it certainly seems to vindicate your justifiable views on the matter and

I hope that David, and the other offenders, will now put this right very soon, especially as he says he

didnt even realise that it was a very clever and rather misleading marketing ploy in the first place......

:rolleyes:

Lynda :)
 

Old_Dave

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 15, 2012
1,211
2
Dumfries & Galloway
However... There's always a different way of dealing with almost any situation .. If the union flag is used in context of "supporting a Great British company" rather than implying anything else, then it's a get out of jail free card


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oigoi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 14, 2011
467
7
Anyone can see that you get what you pay for. You pays your money and takes your choice.

Pay more for a better quality Wisper or go for the lower priced woosh.

I do admire the spec of bike that woosh are able to produce for the price. Would be interesting if someone actually got the two bikes side by side and you could nail down exactly what the extra £820 got for you on a wisper.

Remember with brands there is always the issue of percieved worth. You can end up paying a lot more for something than it is really worth just because it has a certain label on it.

As for Woosh imitating wisper's design I think that is a load of rubbish. They look similar but that general shape / style of ebike frame has been around for years. It's like accusing ford of copying mercedes because they made a blobby looking car with 4 wheels and 4 seats and 4 doors and painted it silver
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
However... There's always a different way of dealing with almost any situation .. If the union flag is used in context of "supporting a Great British company" rather than implying anything else, then it's a get out of jail free card


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You see Dave I look at it this way, a great british company should be producing something in Great Britain.....

I am a knitwear designer producing garments and kits, myself, in this country.

Now if my friend Tanya for example, in the next village, started importing knitwear from Peru, put a union

flag on her labels and starting selling it in this country, calling herself a great british company....I would

understandably be well and truly peed off......

There are actually plenty of companies in this country importing knitwear made in Peru and other 'third

world' countries and marketing it with the flags of that particular country....under the umbrella of 'Fair

Trade' goods helping poor people to make a decent, in their country, wage....thats fine.....I, however am

still just a little peed off as these cheaper goods do nothing to help great british craftspeople who are

becoming a dying breed due to these cheap imports......but at least they dont have the cheek to put a

british flag on their goods ......

Lynda :)
 

GaRRy

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 18, 2012
1,019
3
Tamworth
Is anyone fooled? Of course not.
So why do loads of people buy "British" Fords rather than Nissans,Hondas or Toyotas when far more of those are built in Britain than Fords? and pretty soon not even the transit van.

Flecc never under estimate the stupidity of the average consumer.
Whether having a Union Flag on a bike is right or wrong is one argument but to think it makes no difference is really naive.
 

Old_Dave

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 15, 2012
1,211
2
Dumfries & Galloway
I do accept, understand and agree with what you are saying Lynda, however maybe producing taxes for the benefit of the soon to be extinct Great Britain could. be used as an argument..... lol, Providing of course that it's made quite clear as to the whereabouts of the "major origin"


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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,196
30,602
Would be interesting if someone actually got the two bikes side by side and you could nail down exactly what the extra £820 got for you on a wisper.
Not all of the value is necessarily in the product. Buy a Woosh online or at their address and unless you live close to them you have no local support. Wisper market solely through dealers which has two effects. The price has to include a dealer margin, but in return you have local support backed by Wisper's oft praised after sales service. For many buyers that factor is essential and is well worth paying something extra for.

And as I've often reminded, the law of diminishing returns applies to consumer goods. As a price increases, the VAT also increases pro-rata and so does any percentage margin such as that the importer or dealer gets. The higher the prices of products being sold, the greater the cost of financing the company and cost of insuring goods in warehousing. The final price expansion due to these many factors is disproportional to the intrinsic initial cost of the products.

Therefore calculating relative values in £s of the final retail prices and expecting to see the difference in the product hardware is unreasonable.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,196
30,602
So why do loads of people buy "British" Fords rather than Nissans,Hondas or Toyotas when far more of those are built in Britain than Fords? and pretty soon not even the transit van.
They don't, a very large proportion of Ford's sales are to fleets of rental and company cars, it's those other makes and many more which pick up much of the individual retail market. As someone who spent years in the motor industry I know only too well that private buyers don't like others to think they are driving a company car when they've paid privately for it, so they buy makes not associated in that way. Vauxhall also suffer severely from this effect on their mainstream car models.
 

funkylyn

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 22, 2011
3,172
27
South Shields, Tyne & Wear
however maybe producing taxes for the benefit of the soon to be extinct Great Britain could. be used as an argument..... lol, Providing of course that it's made quite clear as to the whereabouts of the "major origin"


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Hmmm.....No...not really an argument is it lol :D

God, what a long tiring day this has been....good job I have been knitting at the same time

and Im very thankful to Blewit for doing my cycle ride for me today and even letting me see it

I can go off to bed later with a clear conscience lol ;)

Lynda :)