Spot the difference...

[Old_Dave]

I'm thinking of setting up a Great British company called ... Clutching at Straws Ltd


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[jazper53]

I would also be interested to see how the two bikes match up performance wise and see if the wisper 905se is worth its extra £820, from purely a consumers point of view without all the mumbo jumbo.

 

[GaRRy]

They don't, a very large proportion of Ford's sales are to fleets of rental and company cars, it's those other makes and many more which pick up much of the individual retail market. As someone who spent years in the motor industry I know only too well that private buyers don't like others to think they are driving a company car when they've paid privately for it, so they buy makes not associated in that way. Vauxhall also suffer severely from this effect on their mainstream car models.

Sorry cant agree a lot company car drivers have a choice of car and in my experience if they have a choice the one thing they dont choose is a Ford (and definitely not a Mondeo). Most people I have ever known who have a new Ford (privately or company) have it because they think they are buying British. Try it on the High Street list a load of car manufacturers and ask which ones the public think are British I bet more than 50% will include Ford.
Of course the real irony is that despite Ford no longer making cars in UK we are now a net exporter of cars and produce more cars than the Germans.

 

[flecc]

I would also be interested to see how the two bikes match up performance wise and see if the wisper 905se is worth its extra £820, from purely a consumer point of view without all the mumbo jumbo.

The cost facts are not mumbo jumbo. As I've observed, the added cost cannot be reflected in added hardware value, so any consumer judgement will be on subjective values. That can mean as many value judgments as there are consumers.

The rule is always the same, as price increases, the actual value does not increase pro-rata, it's unavoidable.

 

[GaRRy]

The cost facts are not mumbo jumbo. As I've observed, the added cost cannot be reflected in added hardware value, so any consumer judgement will be on subjective values. That can mean as many value judgments as there are consumers.

The rule is always the same, as price increases, the actual value does not increase pro-rata, it's unavoidable.

Yep there is no way a Bugatti Veron is 50 times a better car than a Ford Mondeo

 

[flecc]

Sorry cant agree

Believe what you will, I know the facts. First, the largest fleets are the rental ones and renters get what each rental company offers. Second, the majority of private buyers do not put the perception of the car maker's national identity before avoidance of fleet car identity. The national identity market is a relatively small one and most consumers are not as stupid as you seem to think.

I'm personally quite typical. Having driven many Ford and Vauxhall company cars, neither make was on the radar when privately buying the seven cars I've owned/still own in retirement. That's not because I have anything against the models in particular, it's because of their fleet associations. And my friends still in the motor trade know that little has changed in these respects.

 

[funkylyn]

I cant say that I have ever given a moments thought as to whether a car I bought had fleet associations or not.

I owned and used to absolutely love Ford Granadas and they were a popular fleet car I believe.

Why exactly would anyone not want a car because it was a fleet model....I dont understand....or is this generally a 'man' thing ?

Both of my last Mercedes were low mileage previously owned company cars and were, and one still is, great cars

Aah......or is there a big difference between cars that were previously owned by company directors as opposed to weekly rental type cars....is that it ?

Personally, as long as my car is fast/powerful, starts first time, has a good sound system and is a nice colour thats all I am interested in ( and doesnt have a german flag on it lolol )

Lynda

 

[billadie]

I really do not see the point of this topic. It started as a serious query as to the relative value of two models of bike. It has since degenerated into a pub argument. I suspect that there is history between some participants. I am also wary about people waving flags (legitimately or not) and quoting laws. I suspect m'learned friends will be along shortly.
Could I suggest that everyone takes tomorrow off, goes for a bike ride and then settles down to read Bleak House?

Incidentally, can anyone explain why the most fervent patriots all drive Benz and take frequent holidays abroad? Is it some sort of royal family/Saxe-Coburg thing?

 

[flecc]

Why exactly would anyone not want a car because it was a fleet model....I dont understand....

I'd already said, when someone spends a lot of money buying a new car, they don't want others to think they are driving a company car. I suppose it's mainly a status thing, but the fact is that both Ford and Vauxhall have always suffered in the personal market for mid range models in consequence of their bulk fleet sales. In the economy boom years their policy pays off, but in the recessionary times as now, they really suffer. Surely you've been aware of their cutback announcements of the last three years, a period in which many other makes have done rather well as the private market has been returning to some health. Nissan, Citroen, Kia and Hyundai have been doing particularly well in comparison.

I'm speaking only of new car sales of course. The second hand market is different since ex-fleet cars sold at two or three years old are auctioned off in large batches at low prices which makes them very good buys, offsetting other negative factors.

 

[Synthman]

May I pick the Forums brains?

Would anyone here be more inclined to buy a bike because it is sporting the Union Flag? Irrespective of where it is built. Or would it make you less likely to buy? We know all the arguments for and against the use so let's not go there again. It would simply be useful and interesting to know would you be more likely to buy any bike because it had a Union Flag in it's logo?

All the best

David

What if someone chose to buy it becase they like the look of the Union Jack on the frame, whether or not the bike is actually British?

It is more likely the thought of it being British would put people off buying it! My mate went to Pakistan and one of his relatives took him for a drive across a wooden bridge. As soon as my mate heard the British built the bridge, he demanded that they get off immediately!

 

[tillson]

kudos Dave you have just been added to my "ignore" list

I've never understood this Ignore List business. People have threatened me with it in the past. It's a bit like a peeping-tom or a stalker sending you a message to say that they won't be coming round after dark to observe you.

 

[RobF]

One or two on here are a little bit too eager to tell others what to post and on what topic.

If Kudos, Woosh, Wisper and some other members want to talk about Wisper's use of the Union Jack, it isn't up to any of us to tell them not to.

The topic interests me, so I've posted a couple of times.

If it didn't interest me, I would look elsewhere for my entertainment.

What I would not do is post to tell others what they should or should not be talking about.

 

[eddieo]

I've never understood this Ignore List business. People have threatened me with it in the past. It's a bit like a peeping-tom or a stalker sending you a message to say that they won't be coming round after dark to observe you.

Your becoming more bizarre by the minute. Just sick to death of listening to him pontificating, not as if he has anything that interests me anyway.....what's wrong with that? It may in fact be best to add all the Dealers and just concentrate on e bike discussions as that is after all why I tune in.....


But your right I should have just done it without advertising the fact but I was annoyed OK

 

[RobF]

I think it's great that some of the brands/importers/retailers post on here.

It brings an insight into ebiking that I couldn't get elsewhere.

Equally, the contribution of 'lay members' is valuable.

To me, there's room for both.

 

[funkylyn]

One or two on here are a little bit too eager to tell others what to post and on what topic.

If Kudos, Woosh, Wisper and some other members want to talk about Wisper's use of the Union Jack, it isn't up to any of us to tell them not to.

The topic interests me, so I've posted a couple of times.

If it didn't interest me, I would look elsewhere for my entertainment.

What I would not do is post to tell others what they should or should not be talking about.

I think this forum has something for everyone, technical advice by the shedfull, jokes, general chit chat, photos/vids of great rides out, travel information, legal info and a few heated discussions.

As you so rightly say, if you arent interested in the topic then just dont read it, theres plenty of other stuff to read, and if the topic veers off subject sometimes....so what.....it can be extremely interesting.

Im amazed at what I have learnt on occasions, and Im not afraid to say my piece and always read what others say and treat their opinions with respect as I would hope others do with mine, we dont always have to agree and disagreements are informative and how we broaden our outlook , and thats always good in my book.

I suppose I am lucky in that I am very laid back and can laugh off irritations

Many times it is like being stood at the bar with a load of friends discussing an amazingly diverse range of subjects and I like that about the forum.

I also like the fact that if I need some technical advice there will always be someone there to help.

As long as people can keep it as polite as possible and if they feel themselves getting annoyed just take a 'chill pill' and show respect, then we will all be happy

Lynda

 

[Kudoscycles]

Lets hope we have seen the last of Union Jack flags on any product which is not made in the UK,I was surprised how succinct the law was on this matter-it specifically mentioned product,display,advertising literature-I have often found reading law to be so full of exceptions that it is difficult to be precise but this law was clearly written.
The reason why so many importers are passionate about their postings on this forum is that the ebike industry is full of enthusiasts,who are passionate about their interest in this product. The technology of bikes and batteries is moving at a fast rate such that each year brings new challenges-I actually like the 250 watt limit because it forces design within precise limits.
There are so few marketing opportunites to present our products.There is no national magazine devoted specifically to electric bikes,I realise that Peter Eland is pressing on with the Electric Bike Magazine-please try to support him, he needs our support to continue.We are exhibiting at the London Excel Cycle show,January 17 and have some roadshows in April but without forums such as this we have no way of advertising our products.
Dave
Kudoscycles

 

[flecc]

Lets hope we have seen the last of Union Jack flags on any product which is not made in the UK,I was surprised how succinct the law was on this matter-it specifically mentioned product,display,advertising literature-I have often found reading law to be so full of exceptions that it is difficult to be precise but this law was clearly written.

Its sometimes cynically said that no law is well written since all have unintended consequences.

In this case some excellent British companies are forbidden from using the union flag while Japanese products like cars assembled in the UK can carry the union flag. A truly bonkers outcome.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I absolutely agree Lynda, it is easy to get upset especially when under fire! It is sometimes difficult not to start firing off nasty posts but I think that in general people here are trying to help despite the occasional barbed comment.

I have been a participant of the forum for years and the advice I have received from discussions such as this have been invaluable to the way Wisper and our bikes have developed. I have often changed and upgraded components etc. after reading comments made by people on this forum, although it has made our bikes a little more expensive! As I have said many times before, I am very grateful and am sure we would not be doing so well without Pedelec members' input, so I for one am delighted that topics discussed here range far and wide. As a small business, Pedelecs is invaluable, almost like having a large group of consultants, steering and shaping the business.

Whether people believe it or not, the flag was included in our logo for the reasons already stated, and the country of origin of our bikes has never been hidden or in question. I suppose that because I spend so many hours every week communicating with our manufactures in China, now in Germany, I have never thought that the flag on our frame was misleading in any way. I am so involved on a daily basis with the manufactures in the countries where Wisper bikes are actually made, maybe I am not seeing the wood for the trees here!

The inclusion of the photograph of the Police in Surrey on their fleet of 20 Wispers (recently made up to 25) was also very innocent and not meant to imply Wisper bikes are made in Britain. It was included to show that Wisper bikes were chosen by another UK police force. The implication was that a buyer like the Police would take a lot of time researching the market and trialing a short list of bikes, despite the price of the Wispers, the police, who are under a lot of pressure to reduce costs, chose the bike that they felt offered the best value for money including back up and support. Nothing more sinister than that.

I still cant make up my mind if people on the forum are genuinely confused or this is more about competitors having a pop. However, if by including the Union Flag in our logo we are either braking the law or genuinely misleading the more gullible, we will as Dave suggests immediately remove it.

All the best,

David

The image below shows are most recent exhibition stand, the image is small but under the Wisper Logo (with flag) is the strap line Made in Germany.

 

[Scimitar]

Electric Bikes For Sale | Folding Electric Bikes | Battery Powered Bikes | Lincolnshire, UKBATRIBIKE Electric Bicycles | Cycling Made Easy with Electric Motor Assistance

http://www.ebco-ebikes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/016-Standford-6204.jpg

Just more dishonesty - but at least the second one says 'designed in GB'. However, just because your neighbour burgles houses, doesn't mean you have to, eh?

 

[Wisper Bikes]

Thanks for the demonstration Dave, I think this is one of those more barbed comments!

No offense taken.

All the best

David