@Col: the original starting point was about dongle. Having one does not make the bike unsafe, you still have to pedal at the speed you are riding at and typically, up to around 20mph. The risk of causing an accident is about the same, riding at the same speed unassisted. Why do you have to equate this to having an s-pedelec?
Police crackdown on illegal e-bikes
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
If high speed S Pedelecs were legal and the owner could enjoy all of the freedoms given to the bikes which we currently term as legal, then I might buy one. I can see some broad benefits to the concept, particularly in the case of commuters & travellers into city centres.
I think that we would all agree the we need a framework of rules in which to operate as a society. I see that Phill above wants, "the freedom to do whatever you want". I'm guessing that would be fine with Phill until someone else, enjoying their freedom to do whatever they want, did something which inconvenienced Phill. My guess would be that Phill would want some sort of legislation to restrict the activities and freedoms of his tormentor. Suppose someone's idea of, "fun" as Phill puts it, is to continually ride back and forth, at speed, in front of Phill's house on a mini-MOTO with no silencer. This continues from early evening and into the night. Is Phill going to be a happy bunny, content to allow his fellow citizen to, "do whatever they want" and have their fun or, is he going to change sides and become a person to whom , " fun is an ailien concept?" I suspect that Phill's idea of, "freedom to do whatever you want" is restricted to things that only Phill wants to do and approves of. Other people's freedoms are permissible only if they don't inconvenience Phill. So, I'm guessing that Phill, and the people like him actually do want a framework of rules in which to operate. Good news Phill, we've got some.
The other problem with the public at large is that they generally lack self discipline and self control. For example, the current assist speed limit is 15 mph, or thereabouts. If the limit was set at 30 mph, there would be, people wanting dongles and bikes that would give them the freedom to achieve 35 mph. There is no end to it, so a line has to be established. I know some legal cars can achieve 200 mph, but they are much much more expensive to operate and are subject to infinitely more regulation. And then they can only legally do 70 mph in this country anyway.
For a powered machine that attracts no VEL duty, insurance, rider licensing, annual testing, mandatory helmet wearing and can share cycle paths and other cycling only areas, the current 250 Watt Ebike is not a bad deal for us public. Of course, those who can't see this and lack self control can't resist the urge to seize on the relatively simple opportunity to bastardise the Ebike and turn it into a cheap moped. Thereby saving themselves a bit of money.
To continue with this obsession to eek out a few more mph from what is already a capable legal machine will have a negative outcome for us all. Possibly compulsory insurance for ebikes will be the thin end of the wedge. It will also damage the Ebike retailing industry too.
If the site owners / administrators had any ethics, they would remove the off road forum area. It fools no one. Endless Sphere or whatever, exists for that sort of thing. Let's get this forum back to its origins, Ebike discussion.
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oh Trex... your understanding of product safety law is not great I'm afraid.
Call trading standards if you don't believe me.
The dongle can be a safe item, and the bike can be a safe item. They have both been individually tested and approved. However if a dealer is selling them both together as a new item... its not been tested and constitutes a new item. As the brands do not approve the use of dongles. Trading Standards argue that this new item, as not approved by the bike brands, and as an item that can't be used under UK law on the roads. Its not safe.
Imagine selling a toaster and then the dealer deciding he wants to make it toast faster so he can sell more than his competitor down the road. He might thing its safe, and the customer might be happy. But there are laws set up in this country to protect customers and give traders a level playing field. Imagine what happens is the toaster causes a fire that burns down a house.
Its all fine until there is an accident and then the fact the dealer has bypassed the normal systems is going to land the individual with problems. We as a brand have to make sure we're covered.
Thats all this is.
I'd be pretty browned off, I can tell you. Good point though.
Colin
Sounds like a load of tosh. Every bit a safe, in fact it may even be safer.
What is safe about a vehicle that loses a good proportion of its propulsion power just as it is negotiating its way through moving traffic.
I remember my days on a restricted moped, frightening.
Sounds like a load of tosh. Every bit a safe, in fact it may even be safer.
What is safe about a vehicle that loses a good proportion of its propulsion power just as it is negotiating its way through moving traffic.
I remember my days on a restricted moped, frightening.
I've ridden my Haibike at up to 28 m.p.h. with no dongle. Think Haibike (& all the other manufacturers) would have taken that into account when testing their bikes.
Also:-
Using the quoted logic looks like woe betide any dealer who sells them together!
Also:-
My water bottle holder can be a safe item, and my Haibike can be a safe item. They have both been individually tested and approved.
Using the quoted logic looks like woe betide any dealer who sells them together!
@Col: your opinion on the individuals who derestrict their bikes verges on paranoia. The police should be more concerned with the young agressive riders who use their bike like a weight training kit in a gym even on narrow paths, than a few pensioners who get a dongle for their bike.
There should be a speed limit on narrow paths.
There should be a speed limit on narrow paths.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8436558.stm (2010)
Can't recall any clampdown on mobilty scooters.... despite Daily Mail (2006) scare stories of illegal gangs of tearaway old duffers terrorising and causing mayhem on pavements and shopping centres on 'soupled-up' scooters. If even 'dangerous' scooters don't have the Government's emergency response committee COBRA convening I can''t see pedlecs ridden by relatively sensible middleaged folk being made into public enemy no.1. Though if the price comes down to minimoto levels and youth latch on to the capability to silently zoom around at 15+mph, but as we know the cost of a lithium battery on its own is more expensive than a whole second-hand minimoto that in some way stops performance electric bikes falling into the wrong hands,
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-418615/Illegal-Britains-250-000-mobility-scooters.html
Sound familiar....
Thats not actually true Trex,potentially a dongle will allow you to ride assisted up to 30 mph.twice the cutoff speed of 15 mph.
With regard to S pedelecs,the temptation to ride them fast is hard to avoid,we regularly see them riding very fast passed our shop,even to my untrained eye they do stand out as going faster than the rider input would suggest.
Up until now I suspect the police have the attitude that they have bigger problems to sort out,it will need some event for them to get involved,these things tend to be politically motivated.
KudosDave
quote "... scare stories of illegal gangs of tearaway old duffers terrorising and causing mayhem on pavements and shopping centres on 'soupled-up' scooters...
sound familiar?..." unquote.
Reminded me of this:
Monty Pythons - 'Granny Gang' 
sound familiar?..." unquote.
Reminded me of this:
Hello Mr Tillson,
I am a bit shocked by this post so I have to ask 2 questions of you..
1/ where does your assumption come from that me "having fun anyway I please" equates to .A/.Breaking the law, and B/ Causing offence and inconvenience to others?
2/ How are my "as fast as I can ride up hills" rides (just because I can) again within the law, similar to riding a mini moto without a silencer up and down the street which has to be antisocial behaviour to say the least!
My bike is totally legal, I dont have/had a speed up device (I do admit to considering one) I try to ride it within the law and with consideration to others, having loads of enjoyment (fun) in the process, and, yes I do make bad judgements and do things wrong occasionally,but I try to learn from them.
I wonder if you have me confused with someone else,... or is it just because I dont comply with a fuddy duddy approach to e-bikes,
Prey Tell Mr Tillson
Added later.
Ha ha, yes I get it now... You are talking about yourself!
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Feel free to remove the offroad forum - There' s no more people posting there than anywhere else on here, so you may as well.
Take out the kits posts too.
Last one out switch off the light.
Take out the kits posts too.
Last one out switch off the light.
Its not really paranoia. You are an individual, take risks as you see fit. My concerns are based on a well educated business understanding of the law and issues.
There are now a good x thousand KTM bikes in the UK that are directly linked to my business... so the chances of one of them being involved in an accident or pulled over is a lot higher than you as an individual. So everytime a discussion pops up on here you'll find someone from my office popping up to make sure the implications of riding illegal bikes are made clear. Because if a KTM is every involved in an incident we have our policy clear as day for all to see.
You may well think the police time is better spent doing x or y, but if x or y are not against the law, they won't agree with you.
I honestly don't think anyone is going to get pulled over and fined, or have their bike crushed, or get points on their licence. I just can't see that happening, even though it could. My fear, and it will happen... is that an illegal eBike will be involved in an accident, and then the eyes of the press and politicians will be opened up to what eBikes are and can be and then you'll find we're suddenly under a whole world of more legislation which could spoil the industry / fun for everyone. Whilst the individual involved could be landed with a huge insurance billl, and the dealer who sold the bike could loose their business.
I see the Dutch are kicking mopeds off cycle lanes, although congestion seems to be the main reason.
http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/amsterdam-can-send-mopeds-to-the-carriageway/
http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/amsterdam-can-send-mopeds-to-the-carriageway/
Just look at dogs..
Some very irresponsible people own dangerous breeds which actually kill people. small children even, and it gets in the national news.... And are the owners are taken to task, well yes, often with little penalty, but I don't see dog licences being reintroduced, or hear of unscrupulous breeders being shut down.
So I wonder what is the worst that could happen to e biking if something similar got into the news........
Forced to register the bike.. Well it would make it easier to find a stolen one.
Road tax.. Zero emissions exempt and now no disc, so no worries there
Made to wear a helmet. Do that now,
Have proper front and rear lights. yep got them.
Treaded tyres and brakes that work. yep got them too.
Made to take a test to prove your fit to be on the road.. Who could argue with that?
Compulsory Insurance.. Mmm in fact I think perhaps this is not such a bad thing.... You dont have to be in the wrong to take the blame...
Some very irresponsible people own dangerous breeds which actually kill people. small children even, and it gets in the national news.... And are the owners are taken to task, well yes, often with little penalty, but I don't see dog licences being reintroduced, or hear of unscrupulous breeders being shut down.
So I wonder what is the worst that could happen to e biking if something similar got into the news........
Forced to register the bike.. Well it would make it easier to find a stolen one.
Road tax.. Zero emissions exempt and now no disc, so no worries there
Made to wear a helmet. Do that now,
Have proper front and rear lights. yep got them.
Treaded tyres and brakes that work. yep got them too.
Made to take a test to prove your fit to be on the road.. Who could argue with that?
Compulsory Insurance.. Mmm in fact I think perhaps this is not such a bad thing.... You dont have to be in the wrong to take the blame...
If I wear a helmet it's because I want to not because I'm told to, and if it's a hot day and I don't want to I won't. So more regulation? No thanks. As to compulsory rider testing and registration. I can't think of anything more likely to kill pedelecs stone dead.
Fully agree, it just all this talk of such dire consequences of a few bending the rules a bit made me think about the worst that could happen....
Actually there are parallels to the kit car industry. 20 years ago the industry was pretty much unregulated,you could put a Rover V8 lump into a flimsy space frame chassis and get it registered,some of those home builds were lethal,you wouldn't want one following you down the motorway,the brakes were often terrible. As a parallel,In the London shop we have seen some really awful 1500 watt x 40 mph e-bikes,very badly built and definitely illegal,one was ridden by a 15 year old,the bike bought by an uninformed dad.
There was a big accident with a very powerful kit car hitting head on,ironically the accident had nothing to do with power,the driver was blinded by the sun and lost his direction,but the vehicle had extreme appearance and was bought to the government attention.
The result was SVA,the governments means of ensuring that these vehicles were roadworthy,cost about £200. The industry took a hit but recovered,albeit the smallest builders closed down.
Then the government decided that SVA was not thorough enough,and introduced IVA,fees went up to £600,half the test centres closed and the industry took another hit. The result was that it was only worth building a kit car if it was a high end product or you bought a kit from a manufacturer who had type approval,only the big guys could afford type approval-Caterham or Westfielf,the others supplied kits for Motorsport only ( off road use,where have we heard that before?),the parallel is that only the likes of Kalkhoff,KTM could afford the cost,some of the smaller suppliers would be out of business,this would certainly hurt Kudos or maybe have a much reduced range. The home builds that are often mentioned on this forum would be extremely difficult and expensive to SVA.,I suspect many would find their way to the skip.
Our government could decide that all e-bikes must have type approval,with a number plate,compulsory insurance,helmet,mot.
But the kit car industry was resilient,it adapted to other markets,but the final killer was some yobs broke into a high end kit car factory and stole some very expensive cars,the broker had to put a claim into the underwriter,who realising he was insuring most of the kit car industry,got frightened and exited the industry,with the result that most no longer had product or public liability insurance. Ironically,the yobs got nervous about what they stole and advised the builder where the cars were located,but the damage was done,the underwriters would not change their minds,
Ok,there are some who would say that these are bicycles but be assured that the insurance industry is very nervous of these e-bikes,more so than high powered vehicles,they particularly don't like that they can be ridden by 15 year olds and they can ride on bridle ways and promenades mixing it with pedestrians.
So those who say we are being wimps about these illegals should look at history to see the possible future. If we all keep our heads down and hopefully EN 15194 will satisfy the regulators and we are lucky that nobody runs into Eric Pickles in the meantime!!!!! But this forum is so open about building 1000 watt,30 mph plus motorbikes that have a resemblance to pedelecs I am concerned that some MP will think that raising the subject will raise his profile.
It is for this reason that I and others in the industry are so concerned about these illegal bikes,gentleman we play with fire,it only needs an unlucky event to bring our freedom to regulators attention,we will all be the worse for it.
KudosDave
There was a big accident with a very powerful kit car hitting head on,ironically the accident had nothing to do with power,the driver was blinded by the sun and lost his direction,but the vehicle had extreme appearance and was bought to the government attention.
The result was SVA,the governments means of ensuring that these vehicles were roadworthy,cost about £200. The industry took a hit but recovered,albeit the smallest builders closed down.
Then the government decided that SVA was not thorough enough,and introduced IVA,fees went up to £600,half the test centres closed and the industry took another hit. The result was that it was only worth building a kit car if it was a high end product or you bought a kit from a manufacturer who had type approval,only the big guys could afford type approval-Caterham or Westfielf,the others supplied kits for Motorsport only ( off road use,where have we heard that before?),the parallel is that only the likes of Kalkhoff,KTM could afford the cost,some of the smaller suppliers would be out of business,this would certainly hurt Kudos or maybe have a much reduced range. The home builds that are often mentioned on this forum would be extremely difficult and expensive to SVA.,I suspect many would find their way to the skip.
Our government could decide that all e-bikes must have type approval,with a number plate,compulsory insurance,helmet,mot.
But the kit car industry was resilient,it adapted to other markets,but the final killer was some yobs broke into a high end kit car factory and stole some very expensive cars,the broker had to put a claim into the underwriter,who realising he was insuring most of the kit car industry,got frightened and exited the industry,with the result that most no longer had product or public liability insurance. Ironically,the yobs got nervous about what they stole and advised the builder where the cars were located,but the damage was done,the underwriters would not change their minds,
Ok,there are some who would say that these are bicycles but be assured that the insurance industry is very nervous of these e-bikes,more so than high powered vehicles,they particularly don't like that they can be ridden by 15 year olds and they can ride on bridle ways and promenades mixing it with pedestrians.
So those who say we are being wimps about these illegals should look at history to see the possible future. If we all keep our heads down and hopefully EN 15194 will satisfy the regulators and we are lucky that nobody runs into Eric Pickles in the meantime!!!!! But this forum is so open about building 1000 watt,30 mph plus motorbikes that have a resemblance to pedelecs I am concerned that some MP will think that raising the subject will raise his profile.
It is for this reason that I and others in the industry are so concerned about these illegal bikes,gentleman we play with fire,it only needs an unlucky event to bring our freedom to regulators attention,we will all be the worse for it.
KudosDave
Liberal Fascism if you ask me,.
What happened to the man who just wants to have fun
Lights ! I don't go out in the dark
Helmets ! Tell me to wear one & I'll tell you where to put it
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