Police crackdown on illegal e-bikes

[mountainsport]

...and the rumours keep rolling along.....

I wonder what the Police think of these threads about legality ?

The whole forum provides them with an accurate insight into the wide variety of mindsets of eBikers.

All of the ones I've been very occasionally "involved" with over 50 years have been basically quite reasonable.

I'm inclined to think that it's unlikely that my "non CE stamped" DIY bikes won't suddenly get me a huge fine and a criminal record.

But then again, I'm an old wrinkly riding along carefully with my hi-vis Sam Brown belt, riding very defensively and don't post youtube vids of myself blasting along the pavement at 25 mph....

There always had to be that one who spoil things, you know what I mean?

MS.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Someone on a 1,000W contraption may well wipe out a pedestrian and then we may see where the authorities stand.

But that is a world away from me lollopping along on the Rose at 20mph or less.

this is of course true, they are very different... however I'm afraid in the eyes of the law, and health and safety legislation, insurance etc, there is a line in the sand, and thats set. So you on your Rose with a dongle fitted is just as bad as a 1000w contraption - should you be involved in an accident, the implications are the same. You're on an illegal vehicle.

Unless the police have a quick way of identifying if a bike is or isn't legal, like the way they use a speed gun to show a car is breaking the law, its unlikely they will pay much attention to an ebike unless its one involved in an accident

key point.. here that you're 100% correct on.

UNLESS YOUR INVOLVED IN AN ACCIDENT.

So just as its possible to drive around in your car a tiny bit drunk at all times, the police aren't likely to catch you.... but if you are involved in an accident you will be at fault. Its the same riding an illegal bike. Chances of getting caught - pretty much zero... Implications of being involved in an accident...potentially massive.

If you are in any doubt about the implications of the vehicle you are riding on the road, check with your insurance company.

if you're prepared to take the risk, thats your opinion, but at least make sure you understand the risks you're taking. Many don't seem to.

 

[Kudoscycles]

+"One of the UK dealers" \well I wonder which one.
Maybe the one who goes on about them all the time on here

Not sure who you are refering to,but I can definitely say that it was not Kudos Cycles nor our London dealer,London Electric Bike Company.
I must say that some years ago,when I first got involved in e-bikes I got fed up with being asked why I could not sell S pedelec type bikes when clearly they go past our shop very often. I did at that time ask Trading Standards to investigate,for it is unfair competition,they responded by insisting that such bikes needed to be clearly advertised as requiring moped registration,the advertising did get altered but lapses back when the heat dies down,it has not stopped such bikes being sold and used on the road and actually in the local park.
I think new traders go through a loop of initially getting annoyed about these illegals but the police and trading standards seem to be luke warm about taking any action so gradually I have accepted that these illegals will exist until some nasty event happens....perhaps a 15 stone bloke on an illegal bike on a cycle track,travelling at 25 mph,hits someone or a child....then governments will have a knee jerk reaction,the police and trading standards will protect their posteriors(wanted to use another word here)......and the government will work out a way to take away the freedom and tax us all.
I suspect that the reference to 'one of the UK dealers' is probably in the same category as 'informed sources',ie the author justifying his story.
Actually the public has become wise to the 250 watt,15,5 mph limits and selling guaranteed legal bikes is now seen as positive marketing,it certainly balances with the fewer people who want to risk buying an illegal bike,or derestricting it or now very obvious ftting a dongle, the latter must be aware to the police by now.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

My point is they are similar and it is double standards. If someone questioned dongles and sold neither I would not have a problem. However that is all I am going to say, not interested in getting into a long debate. I will let members draw their own conclusions based on this. On the other side of the coin it is free promotion for dongles

It can't be good that the dongle causes the speedo to read at 50% of true speed,ok an experienced cyclist has an appreciation of speed without looking at the speedo,but these e-bikes are often bought by novice cyclists.
Just an amusing aside....my daughter bought a Cooper S and took me for a ride in her new car,not wishing to seem a back seat driver,I was nervous about pointing out to her that 80 mph seemed a bit fast....Dad shut up I am only doing 45,she was looking at the big tacho not the speedo!!!!
KudosDave

 

[trex]

if someone causes an accident riding at 20mph and hitting a pedestrian, I personally can't see the difference between being assisted and not. If you cause an accident sufficiently grave that the authorities need to seize your bike for investigation, those consequences would presumably be about as serious, with or without dongle.

 

[BAH48]

The consequences for the victim might be the same, although with ebikes being heavier it would probably be worse. On the other hand the rider of the illegal ebike would face additional charges even if they were not to blame. Were they to be at fault, the prosecution would make much of the extra speed made possible by the illegal assistance and the penalties would inevitably be higher.

 

[Gubbins]

if someone causes an accident riding at 20mph and hitting a pedestrian, I personally can't see the difference between being assisted and not. If you cause an accident sufficiently grave that the authorities need to seize your bike for investigation, those consequences would presumably be about as serious, with or without dongle.

I would expect the consequences to be not so ground shaking, just look how hard it seems getting convictions for causing death by dangerous driving.... Yesterday I was stopped on the towpath by a very upset lady who's toddler was nearly knocked into the canal by a recless cyclist.. While we were chatting (this lady, a pushchair, a small child, 2 dog walkers with 2dogs on leads and me) on a track that is barely 4 ft wide, another mad biker came charging through without slowing down, in fact he was peddling furiously. This lady wanted to report them both to the police... Which of course can't be done....

 

[BAH48]

Much easier to prove an ebike is illegal than to prove dangerous and reckless riding of an ordinary bicycle.

 

[Wander]

Much easier to prove an ebike is illegal than to prove dangerous and reckless riding of an ordinary bicycle.

Yep!

And MUCH easier to prove that an S-pedelec (as sold by both James@justebikes & KTM) is illegal on the road compared to a 'dongled' bike which may or may not have the dongle plugged in at the relevant time!

Some very wise words posted by both Electrifying Cycles & KudosDave above.

All this 'Product Safety' stuff is a red herring. If bikes that can do over 15 m.p.h. are inherently unsafe then you'd have to ban every bike on the road, pedelec, S-pedelec or normal push bike!

 

[Gubbins]

Yep!

And MUCH easier to prove that an S-pedelec (as sold by both James@justebikes & KTM) is illegal on the road compared to a 'dongled' bike which may or may not have the dongle plugged in at the relevant time!

Some very wise words posted by both Electrifying Cycles & KudosDave above.

All this 'Product Safety' stuff is a red herring. If bikes that can do over 15 m.p.h. are inherently unsafe then you'd have to ban every bike on the road, pedelec, S-pedelec or normal push bike!

The thing everyone seems to miss is its nothing to do with the bikes! It's all to do with the riders! An unsafe rider poses problems no matter what he is riding. All these what ifs being thrown about are just like the... If we dont stop making co2 we are all going to die. If we don't stop eating we will all get fat and die. If we don't stop dongeling our bikes we will all suffer equally dire consequences..

 

[Kuorider]

The Police in Spain regularly set up a portable dyno to check the power of Mopeds used by young riders who are power limited by age. This could be easily introduced here for pedalecs if the problem becomes worse. Overpowered bicycles are currently on borrowed time. Given the costs I cannot see the logic in not just buying a small motorcycle rather than a super pedelec. A Honda 90 is cheap, safer, and will run away and hide from any pedalec. The cycle parts are substantially stronger and safer too, as is the recognition by other traffic. Electric biking is going to be ruined for us all. First will be a ban from anywhere but roads. The Police are not daft ,they are well aware of what is going on.

 

[SRS]

The Police in Spain regularly set up a portable dyno to check the power of Mopeds used by young riders who are power limited by age. This could be easily introduced here for pedalecs if the problem becomes worse. Overpowered bicycles are currently on borrowed time. Given the costs I cannot see the logic in not just buying a small motorcycle rather than a super pedelec. A Honda 90 is cheap, safer, and will run away and hide from any pedalec. The cycle parts are substantially stronger and safer too, as is the recognition by other traffic. Electric biking is going to be ruined for us all. First will be a ban from anywhere but roads. The Police are not daft ,they are well aware of what is going on.

Cannot see the logic in not buying a motor cycle?

You and I suspect a more than a few others really are missing the whole point of a pedelec.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Cannot see the logic in not buying a motor cycle?

You and I suspect a more than a few others really are missing the whole point of a pedelec.

I think the current development of legal e-bikes has pushed the performance beyond what was originally conceived when the EN15194 specification 250 watts was decided upon.
Probably the performance has currently reached a plateau,the BPM motor with its low speed high torque offers uphill performance with minimal rider input. But there seems to be a number of Electric bike users who wish uphill performance without pedalling,I don't think that is a Pedelec I think it is an electric motorbike,there are some excellent and powerful and legal electric motorbikes.....see the KTM freeride.
Maybe the forum should have a separate section devoted to electric motorbikes,that would legally satisfy those who wish to ride a 2 wheel machine uphill without pedalling.
KudosDave

 

[Gubbins]

Cannot see the logic in not buying a motor cycle?

You and I suspect a more than a few others really are missing the whole point of a pedelec.

I have seen this posted before. It's not those that are missing the point of a pedelec, it's those that are missing the point of free will to have a different opinion and the freedom to do whatever you want... It again reminds me of school..... No running in the corridors boy! Surely the point of a pedelec is to have fun! Perhaps fun is an alien concept to some....

 

[Kudoscycles]

I have seen this posted before. It's not those that are missing the point of a pedelec, it's those that are missing the point of free will to have a different opinion and the freedom to do whatever you want... It again reminds me of school..... No running in the corridors boy! Surely the point of a pedelec is to have fun! Perhaps fun is an alien concept to some....

Can you not have fun on a legal electric motorbike?
I saw an electric motorbike on one of my China visits,I think it's quite a sexy looking bike...48v x 1500 watt folding electric motorcycle,they told me they had EEC type approval,you could legally register this bike as a motorbike and legally use it on the road.
It is marketed by Shanghai Leishun Industry Co Ltd,zip code 201101.
They quoted me about 1200 U.S. dollars ,by the time it was shipped,registered probably about £1500 on the road.
Perhaps someone will google it and load the photo,it seems easiest to find on their alibaba site.
Is this not ideal for those who want superior performance which cannot be offered by legal pedelecs? Surely this would be their dream machine.
KudosDave

 

[Gubbins]

Can you not have fun on a legal electric motorbike?
I saw an electric motorbike on one of my China visits,I think it's quite a sexy looking bike...48v x 1500 watt folding electric motorcycle,they told me they had EEC type approval,you could legally register this bike as a motorbike and legally use it on the road.
It is marketed by Shanghai Leishun Industry Co Ltd,zip code 201101.
They quoted me about 1200 U.S. dollars ,by the time it was shipped,registered probably about £1500 on the road.
Perhaps someone will google it and load the photo.
Is this not ideal for those who want superior performance which cannot be offered by legal pedelecs? Surely this would be their dream machine.
KudosDave

Well each to their own. Personally it's that last thing I would want to buy.. No effort needed to make it go and it won't get your heart pumping, but I can see how it might appeal to the throttle users.. And yes I am sure you can have fun on one.... I just get a bit fed up with those that have decided what an electric bike is all about and if you don't conform to their view you need to buy a motorcycle? Really?

 

[OldFart]

New to all this so most of the techie stuff goes over my head.

I have a disc problem so sitting on a normal bike seat is painful, Pedalling is also painful. A couple of turns to get it going is acceptable but having to pedal up a hill would be a big no.
I am not fussed about speed. 15mph is probably more than enough. Up a hill on throttle only just needs to be fast enough not to fall off.

Already trying to plan my route to avoid a busy dual carriageway and roundabout.
If i go the opposite way there is a canal which will bypass that. Just need to check to see where i can get in/out.

Ideally an electric moped upto 30mph with a 30 - 50 mile range would be perfect. But i couldnt warrant the costs of insurance. I tried getting a quote on a registered electric scooter and it came back over £300. I had a petrol scooter insured for around £100 and my car only costs just over £300.

Then the hassle of MOTs etc.

Maybe my opinions will change when i get my "Thing" up and running?

 

[Geebee]

New to all this so most of the techie stuff goes over my head.

I have a disc problem so sitting on a normal bike seat is painful, Pedalling is also painful. A couple of turns to get it going is acceptable but having to pedal up a hill would be a big no.

Maybe my opinions will change when i get my "Thing" up and running?

If you ever get the chance, try riding a recumbent trike, many with back issues find they can ride without issue.
When I have hurt my back in the past I find a ride on the trike helps it recover more rapidly.
Only one real drawback, they tend to be expensive.

 

[BAH48]

I have seen this posted before. It's not those that are missing the point of a pedelec, it's those that are missing the point of free will to have a different opinion and the freedom to do whatever you want... It again reminds me of school..... No running in the corridors boy! Surely the point of a pedelec is to have fun! Perhaps fun is an alien concept to some....

Nobody has the freedom to do what they want, schools have rules to keep pupils safe, just as in our wider society. A line has been drawn to differentiate the assisted ebike from the motorbike. I have both and am well satisfied with them. It is tempting to want more power from my ebike, but I have to accept the current legislation.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

...and the reason that some of us (businesses and individuals) are so sensitive about people using illegally powerful bikes is that one of these few who feel they have the right to break the law could spoil the whole industry for us all at this sensitive time, if they are involved in an accident, before the law is set.

I have to say this article wasn't realised to the press by us, but we do fully support it, and its added another angle to the debate. We will be promoting it, and helping educate the powers that be about the issue of illegally powerful bikes.

Its now appearing in the UK press.

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/london-police-crack-down-on-de-restricted-e-bike-sellers-42838/

so expect everyone to be much more aware of the types of bikes that are available, and the implications of their use.