Police crackdown on illegal e-bikes

[Wander]

James seems to like getting Trading Standards involved. Here's something that Trading Standards do say:-

Advertising to consumers
The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations mean you can’t mislead or harass consumers by, for example:
##including false or deceptive messages
##leaving out important information

His site makes claims like:-

Sparta E-Speed CrossBar Electric Bike

If you feel the NEED for SPEED then SPARTA’s ION E-Speed electric bike is the one for you. With a built-in power boost throttle it will summit the steepest inclines with ease, and travel at speeds of up to 40kmh.

Because the Sparta E-Speed can travel at speeds of up to 40Kmh this e-bike must be registered with the DVLA. This is a straight-forward procedure – if you would like more details please contact us .

He has also stated on this forum 'No need for for a numberplate' if you actually manage to register an S-pedelec & makes a couple of other points which Electrifying Cycles have challenged him on (see links in post 9 of this thread).

We're yet to see the proof requested. In the absence of that proof do forum members think the above statements might be misleading or 'false or deceptive messages' or ‘leaving out important information’?

 

[OldBob1]

My bike does 25 MPH down hill is it illegal

 

[Blew it]

I see the Dutch are kicking mopeds off cycle lanes, although congestion seems to be the main reason.

http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/amsterdam-can-send-mopeds-to-the-carriageway/

Interesting news, and not before time. Obviously I do not live in the Netherlands, but could never understand why they allowed this in the first place. Mixing motorised two-wheelers with bicycles immediately re-introduced the greatest danger to cyclists.....the speed differential!

 

[Kudoscycles]

I have sympathies with James's position. He is a trader who needs to compete to maintain his business. He sees companies not a million miles from him,who are openly advertising S Pedelecs bikes,with on road testimonials that he feels a need to offer the same.
The fault lies with the police and more directly trading standards who have turned a blind eye to these obviously illegal bikes,this forum has some members who openly state they use these bikes on the road,forget the 'off road use or private land use only' or 'can be easily registered' I know nobody who has registered these bikes and I know many who turn up at our London shop,some have not even bothered to take the number plates off!
So James is in a difficult position,he is being pressured to supply bikes by his customers that he knows cannot be used as legal bicycles but other traders seem to be getting away with it.
Kudos and the London Electric Bike Company are not under such pressure,the e-bike business is not the prime revenue,so we don't need to be pressured into selling S Pedelecs. I think the market for such bikes is reducing because customers are becoming more knowledgeable about their legality.
However,if someone can educate me how I can legally sell S Pedelecs in the UK as bicycles...I repeat as bicycles,not mopeds....then I would gladly market such machines. Every thread that mentions easily registered seems to go cold when we ask who has done it.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

My bike does 25 MPH down hill is it illegal

Yes,if it is still under power. If it is pedal only,who cares! Jim tells me he has managed 37 mph down some Scottish mountain on a Kudos Typhoon,without power....he is old enough to know better but he is legal,not sure if he can flash a 30 mph speed trap!!!!!
KudosDave

 

[Wander]

I have sympathies with James's position. He is a trader who needs to compete to maintain his business. He sees companies not a million miles from him,who are openly advertising S Pedelecs bikes,with on road testimonials that he feels a need to offer the same.
The fault lies with the police and more directly trading standards who have turned a blind eye to these obviously illegal bikes,this forum has some members who openly state they use these bikes on the road,forget the 'off road use or private land use only' or 'can be easily registered' I know nobody who has registered these bikes and I know many who turn up at our London shop,some have not even bothered to take the number plates off!
So James is in a difficult position,he is being pressured to supply bikes by his customers that he knows cannot be used as legal bicycles but other traders seem to be getting away with it.
Kudos and the London Electric Bike Company are not under such pressure,the e-bike business is not the prime revenue,so we don't need to be pressured into selling S Pedelecs. I think the market for such bikes is reducing because customers are becoming more knowledgeable about their legality.
However,if someone can educate me how I can legally sell S Pedelecs in the UK as bicycles...I repeat as bicycles,not mopeds....then I would gladly market such machines. Every thread that mentions easily registered seems to go cold when we ask who has done it.
KudosDave

Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with James & other small business owners & know as well as many on this forum how tough it is to run a small business.

It's the apparent hypocrisy which I don't understand. You've made it quite open that you have had a spat with another trader about s-pedelecs but your stand is that you don't / won't sell them & I respect that.

James appears to report other dealers to trading standards when on the face of it he is selling s-pedelecs & might not be complying with trading standards himself.

I was initially excited with the claims he made. At face value he had made a real breakthrough. Sadly when Electrifying Cycles started to challenge him he stopped posting on those threads. You know nobody who has registered an s-pedelec, James states that it is a straight-forward process. Only one of you can be right!

 

[Blew it]

Regarding the claim that machines retro-fitted with so-called dongles would automatically be seized and crushed.

In such circumstances, the owner would be advised to remove the device and then present the machine to a police station for examination to prove it had been returned to as-purchased condition. This is standard procedure for other modifications such as too-dark window tints, non standard number plates and exhaust systems to name just a few. In such circumstances, and providing the recommendations have been carried out, the vehicle would not be seized. The situation would be very different for an S-class pedelec.

"S" class pedelecs have a much higher assisted speed cut-off, this is set-in-stone in the firmware of the motor controller. It cannot be "un-plugged" or disconnected at will. As no exemption class currently exists for such a vehicle in this country, the machine would almost certainly be seized and crushed.

As you can see, there is a substantial difference between an illegally modified E-bike and one for which no exemption exists...an expensive difference in the case of the latter.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with James & other small business owners & know as well as many on this forum how tough it is to run a small business.

It's the apparent hypocrisy which I don't understand. You've made it quite open that you have had a spat with another trader about s-pedelecs but your stand is that you don't / won't sell them & I respect that.

James appears to report other dealers to trading standards when on the face of it he is selling s-pedelecs & might not be complying with trading standards himself.

I was initially excited with the claims he made. At face value he had made a real breakthrough. Sadly when Electrifying Cycles started to challenge him he stopped posting on those threads. You know nobody who has registered an s-pedelec, James states that it is a straight-forward process. Only one of you can be right!

I agree with everything you say...I have no holier than thou attitude against S pedelecs and am equally frustrated that if there is a mechanism for legally using S pedelecs on the road then I would gladly sell same.
But when pressed nobody seems to advise how this is possible,even with type approval
I am sure Colin of FLI (KTM) would happily import KTM S pedelecs,if there was a simple and legal means of using them,I would prefer that usage was as a bicycle on cycle tracks not just the public highway,but that is maybe asking for too much.
I think you misunderstood my posting,it appears to me we are like thinking.
KudosDave

 

[Wander]

I am sure Colin of FLI (KTM) would happily import KTM S pedelecs,if there was a simple and legal means of using them,I would prefer that usage was as a bicycle on cycle tracks not just the public highway,but that is maybe asking for too much.
I think you misunderstood my posting,it appears to me we are like thinking.
KudosDave

No, no misunderstanding, I am in agreement with you!

Oh & haven't you heard Col has changed his stance, FLI have said they are now importing & selling s-pedelecs (for private land use only).

 

[Kudoscycles]

No, no misunderstanding, I am in agreement with you!

Oh & haven't you heard Col has changed his stance, FLI have said they are now importing & selling s-pedelecs (for private land use only).

Really,that seems in conflict with his previous postings on this thread. Private land is actually a difficult bit of real estate to find,forget Forestry Commision,Duchy of Cornwall. Perhaps we could sell one to Andrew Lloyd Webber,he owns privately big chunks of Berkshire!!!!!!
KudosDave

 

[Wander]

Really,that seems in conflict with his previous postings on this thread.

Yep, see here.

 

[trex]

So, how many dongles are sold in the UK so far? I am willing to bet that number is only in the low hundreds.
isn't it strange that some traders take every opportunity to peddle fear whenever someone talks about dongles and yet, there never has been any real fact to support their propaganda.
The UK e-bike market is tiny because e-bikes are mostly bought by people who need them. Not a big percentage. People who want speed wouldn't buy e-bikes anyway, because of their intrinsically higher depreciation in comparision to motobikes.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I am sure Colin of FLI (KTM) would happily import KTM S pedelecs,if there was a simple and legal means of using them,I would prefer that usage was as a bicycle on cycle tracks not just the public highway,but that is maybe asking for too much.
I think you misunderstood my posting,it appears to me we are like thinking.
KudosDave

100% correct Dave

Oh & haven't you heard Col has changed his stance, FLI have said they are now importing & selling s-pedelecs (for private land use only).

not quite... we've said we can sell them, that doesn't mean we are.

We've said we will supply them if the customer and dealer can prove they have access to the private land needed to use them.

No one so far has been able to prove they can use one legally, and if I'm honest I don't expect anyone will be able to .

This is a very deliberate decision, because people have said we're only anti them because we can't sell them. We can sell them, hence the change in wording. What we've found so far is that whilst we can sell them, there is no one who can use them legally... so none have been sold.

 

[shemozzle999]

So, how many dongles are sold in the UK so far? I am willing to bet that number is only in the low hundreds.
isn't it strange that some traders take every opportunity to peddle fear whenever someone talks about dongles and yet, there never has been any real fact to support their propaganda.
The UK e-bike market is tiny because e-bikes are mostly bought by people who need them. Not a big percentage. People who want speed wouldn't buy e-bikes anyway, because of their intrinsically higher depreciation in comparision to motobikes.

If they are not illegal now they will be in the future:

(10)

The objectives of this Regulation should not be affected by the fitting of certain systems, components or separate technical units after vehicles have been placed on the market, registered or entered into service. Thus, appropriate measures should be taken in order to make sure that systems, components or separate technical units which can be fitted to vehicles, and which could significantly impair the functioning of systems that are essential for environmental protection or functional safety, are subject to prior control by an approval authority before they are placed on the market, registered or are entered into service.


and the Government does not appear to have their hands tied even if they bring in the new regulation to make any changes to what already exists:

(4)

This Regulation should be without prejudice to measures at national or Union level regarding the use of L-category vehicles on the road, such as specific drivers’ licence requirements, limitations of maximum speed or measures regulating access to certain roads.

 

[JohnCade]

At face value he had made a real breakthrough. Sadly when Electrifying Cycles started to challenge him he stopped posting on those threads. You know nobody who has registered an s-pedelec, James states that it is a straight-forward process. Only one of you can be right!

I think it's been established over quite a few threads even since I've been on this forum that KudosDave is right.

Flecc, who has taken knowledge on these things, has written on several occasions that there is no possible mechanism to register an s pedelec in the UK and for it to remain recognisable as an s pedelec. The only way would be to use the moped classification and make the bike compliant with that. So moped lights flashers mirrors etc. Then tax and register it and have the required drivers licence, and wear a motorcycle approved helmet. No use on bridleways and cycleways of course.

Someone did post a picture of something similar here a month or so back which an Endless Sphere member had registered after a lot of hassle; and it was an odd looking beast. That wasn't an s pedelec though it was a converted high powered electric bike.

I believe there is a requirement for some of these things on an actual s pedelec in Germany as well. They aren't classed as e bikes with the freedom from regulation of e bikes.

 

[oigoi]

I think the absence of a way to legally use a S pedelec is part of the problem that the government needs to address. We are part of the european union, other member states have legislation that allows for easy legal use of S pedelecs, so why don't we? Perhaps a useful piece of equipment like an S pedelec would result in a significant drop in car use and a drop in government tax revenues. One of the reasons people are interested in more powerful ebikes is that they offer a viable alternative to car use for a lot of local journeys. But try and carry much weight around on, or drawn behind a 250w ebike you cant even do 15mph, especially if any hills are involved

 

[trex]

The article quotes a non-attributed source, there has been no record of fines or other sanctions - everywhere else in the EU, the police aren't bothered with dongles so why here?

 

[Wicky]

Possibly the propogation of the original article with its unsubstantiated claim of raids by trading standards acts as a steamroller of fear to try and impose a level playing field in the market place...

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The article quotes a non-attributed source, there has been no record of fines or other sanctions - everywhere else in the EU, the police aren't bothered with dongles so why here?

there is a slight issue with this whole thread, in that the title isn't correct / relevant to the article.

Its not that the police are cracking down on illegal eBikes... the artificial is about trading standards cracking down on dealers selling bikes that are modified to mean they leave the shop in a state that isn't CE certified as a ebike anymore.

This is an important difference that lots seem to be missing..

 

[Kudoscycles]

The article quotes a non-attributed source, there has been no record of fines or other sanctions - everywhere else in the EU, the police aren't bothered with dongles so why here?

Trex,where do you get the notion that 'elsewhere in the EU,the police are not bothered about dongles' Any parts that I sell into Germany have much stricter certification and it seems a much tighter controlled country than the UK.
Before making this comment I e-mailed my Dutch dealer friend,who is very knowlegeable about the Dutch market,he advised that no dealer would dare fit a dongle because of concerns of EN15194 implications....the Dutch are particularly aware of EN15194.
I suspect that the police in Germany would also be particularly hot on bicycles which were outside the scope of S pedelec,but fitted with a dongle,as S pedelec has to have a number plate it is easy to identify 'standard e-bikes'.I suppose if you wanted to have a 30 mph bike you would buy an S pedelec,so maybe the desire for a dongle is less relevant.
Trex....what makes you believe that EU police would not be concerned about dongles?
KudosDave