Illegal Bikes

[lemmy]

Lemmy! (with the best will in the world)I think you must have been a bit bored the other day when you started this thread mate. There are so many more important things going on you could put your energy into.

If it's so boring, I'm surprised that you're reading it and responding to it, mate

 

[Straylight]

@Flecc

I completely agree, and was simply trying to open the debate to another perspective. Please don't think I was seriously proposing that we have no laws at all with regard to transport, as I fully understand that they protect me as much as anyone else, and indeed without them I'd certainly fear to venture out on my bike.

The other day, I passed a school where a group of children were doing their cycling proficiency training, and I think I actually cheered, as I think such things are invaluable in providing a subconscious baseline for personal conduct. I in no way would wish for a society with a philosophy of 'everyone for themselves', quite the reverse in fact, I'd like to live somewhere where people have as much regard for others as they do for themselves. I suppose my point was that even with our level of regulation, this still seems to be rather lacking, and that in order to be truly safe on the roads we need a better mindset.

 

[flecc]

We are certainly in full agreement there Straylight, I'm all for the primary safety measures that prevent accidents, and personal conduct is by far the most important factor there as you imply. I've just answered in those ways in this other thread.
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[Alex728]

I'd like to live somewhere where people have as much regard for others as they do for themselves. I suppose my point was that even with our level of regulation, this still seems to be rather lacking, and that in order to be truly safe on the roads we need a better mindset.

there's a bizzare double standard in British society (I'm not sure if its the same in other nations) whereby nicking stuff or being violent/controlling to another person because they are perceived to be weaker is normally viewed by reasonable folk as criminal behaviour - yet aggressive driving (even if it leads to collisions) or attempting to evade costs associated with vehicle licensing is viewed as a lesser offence

that said I don't think at present there is a major problem with dysfunctional folk getting high power illegal ebikes, but you never know what could occur in the future. If just a few years ago someone in the IT industry had said that kids on housing estates would be using high powered networked computers in their own bedrooms to insult and bully each other and organise gang fights, they would have been laughed at and accused of being overly pessimistic...

we have already had one moral panic with those "mini motos" about 10 years ago, some of them were electric. I believe this was stopped by a combination of enforcement and import controls via Trading Standards. Today youths might well be too dumbed down to build a high powered bike of any kind but there actually is a resurgence in some young people learning practical skills..

 

[Straylight]

there's a bizzare double standard in British society (I'm not sure if its the same in other nations) whereby nicking stuff or being violent/controlling to another person because they are perceived to be weaker is normally viewed by reasonable folk as criminal behaviour - yet aggressive driving (even if it leads to collisions) or attempting to evade costs associated with vehicle licensing is viewed as a lesser offence

I think it's called democracy Whereby if enough people think in a certain way, it becomes normal and acceptable, and people resist any change to the status quo by pleading an infringement on civil liberties. I don't envy the legislators the job of having to navigate their way through such an emotionally driven, self contradictory minefield. Not that authoritarianism is any better, in fact the only thing to be said for it is that it has clarity

I suppose in the end, it's all about balance, in this case the selfish desires of the individual vs their impact upon others.

 

[flecc]

there's a bizzare double standard in British society (I'm not sure if its the same in other nations) whereby nicking stuff or being violent/controlling to another person because they are perceived to be weaker is normally viewed by reasonable folk as criminal behaviour - yet aggressive driving (even if it leads to collisions) or attempting to evade costs associated with vehicle licensing is viewed as a lesser offence

Just one of many double standards I think. While theft is often despised by many, those same people will often buy cheap stuff from sources that make it likely it's stolen. Somehow it becomes ok if it's at one remove. Shop lifting is often similarly viewed as less serious theft.

we have already had one moral panic with those "mini motos" about 10 years ago, some of them were electric. I believe this was stopped by a combination of enforcement and import controls via Trading Standards.

I think it was the crushing that did the trick here, certainly it was that in my area. Nothing killed a youngster's desire to own one than to see their £200/£300 new purchase crushed. There were some tears shed.

Today youths might well be too dumbed down to build a high powered bike of any kind but there actually is a resurgence in some young people learning practical skills..

I wish and I hope. I'll happily tolerate some illegality if it leads to kids building their own and gaining some of the practical skills that are so rare today in the young. Having self built it's likely they'll take care not to crash and damage their pride and joy anyway.
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[Alex728]

I suppose in the end, it's all about balance, in this case the selfish desires of the individual vs their impact upon others.

unfortunately with vehicles its definitely gone the other way. if you read the EADT or Evening Star you must have seen all the recent reports of RTCs involving young people, where the drivers have injured or killed their best friends or lovers through what is blatantly dangerous driving (showing off on the roads or DUI) they are then brought before Court, found guilty and show very little remorse, only petulance at the fact they are going to prison!

There is already an attitude of "might makes right" on some roads in this region - its not as bad in Suffolk (perhaps due to greater traffic law enforcement?) but I read comments on this forum from a member who normally lives in a larger city that he found cycling in rural Norfolk to be quite frightening due to aggressive driving....

 

[Straylight]

Agreed, interestingly though, I find the worst offenders appear to be the week-enders in their spotless 4x4 tanks, and luxury saloons. Seems like they don't get the chance to try out their ridiculously overpowered toys at home . The farmers in their 'Warrior' type behemoths are rather considerate by comparison. My partner's experience bears this out, as she's often tailgated up the A12 by some prat in a range-rover, on Friday evenings particularly (not the same car, I mean various specimens of the species homo-prikdrivius).

There's the constant, low level annoyance of the young men in white vans, but I suppose thats pretty non-geographic.

It is truly sad that that so many of the young become overwhelmed with the sense of power behind the wheel, but if they're too stupid to realise their own vulnerability, and that of others, then they're going to be too stupid to realise when something's their fault.

 

[flecc]

My partner's experience bears this out, as she's often tailgated up the A12 by some prat in a range-rover, on Friday evenings

Reminds me of the self deprecating Range Rover owner I once knew who asked me "What is the difference between a Range Rover and a hedgehog?"

His answer was, "The Range Rover has the pricks on the inside!"
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[Straylight]

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[Old Timer]

If it's so boring, I'm surprised that you're reading it and responding to it, mate

Point taken but as one who enjoys to build my own bikes and dabble a touch I suppose I felt the need to stand up for the minority ( it seems that others aren`t prepared to) which makes you wonder just how they ARE riding more powerful bikes

It`s a bit in my nature I`m afraid Lemmy, I just don`t like a hint of being told what to do I suppose.
You obviously ride to the letter of the law and fine by me but why do you feel threatened by anyone that doesn`t? Why not just sit back smug and gloat when others come a cropper?

 

[Old Timer]

Dave, being decrepit is no defence in the eyes of the Law

You sure! the doctor said I can take liberties seeing as I`m not smoking now

OK, lets say that I rolled into the camp site where you were in Italy and being a helpful type of chap I notice you in distress trying to get your E bike going to avoid taking the edge off of your holiday. So I stroll over and after some tests we come to the conclusion that your controller and rear hub are faulty. "Not to worry old chum, I have a spare wheel and controller on board and you can borrow it and return it when you get home" Of course it`s a 350Watt motor which renders it illegal and you have to refuse it and spoil your long planned holiday. Yes? or No?

 

[flecc]

makes you wonder just how they ARE riding more powerful bikes

There's huge variations in peak powers of legal motors, from 300 to over 700 watts, so some are very much more powerful to the perception than others.

The 300 watt peak one I mention will typically give a range of around 23 to 27 miles from a 260 Wh battery, while an over 700 watt peak one I know typically gives a 15 to 20 mile range from 370 Wh. Both are restricted to the legal assist speed limit, but one flies up hills much faster. No prizes for guessing which!

The decision on which to adopt is that of the designer and marketing department (if any) of course, but either way it's legal.
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[Alex728]

Agreed, interestingly though, I find the worst offenders appear to be the week-enders in their spotless 4x4 tanks, and luxury saloons. Seems like they don't get the chance to try out their ridiculously overpowered toys at home .

cops tend to profile younger "leisure time" drivers for greater scrutiny especially at night time, whilst older drivers are often overlooked and those of any age driving to and from "a days work" often get away with all sorts... I've noticed most of the worst crashes in EA happen at rush hour where a time pressured motorist assumes that the other party will simply "get out of the way" and both parties try to be stubborn...

someone here recently posted a news report about a Welsh lad of our age who rides a "scooter style" e-bike. It is actually within the 15mph limit but he was constantly being picked up by cops and had the machine impounded at least once, as being a young looking lad in a tracksuit he was immediately suspected of riding an illegal moped without helmet...

 

[Straylight]

I have wondered about the logic of making an e-bike look like a moped, I don't think I'd feel comfortably inconspicuous riding one. Still, hopefully the local police will now recognise his machine for what it is, and the publicity will work in his favour.

 

[Jimod]

There's huge variations in peak powers of legal motors, from 300 to over 700 watts, so some are very much more powerful to the perception than others.

The 300 watt peak one I mention will typically give a range of around 23 to 27 miles from a 260 Wh battery, while an over 700 watt peak one I know typically gives a 15 to 20 mile range from 370 Wh. Both are restricted to the legal assist speed limit, but one flies up hills much faster. No prizes for guessing which!

The decision on which to adopt is that of the designer and marketing department (if any) of course, but either way it's legal.
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Which make of bike has the 700watt peak motor? I ask, since I'm looking for an ebike and live in a VERY hilly area. OK I live up a hill and the only way out is down so, to get home it's a fair old climb. I don't particulary need a HUGE range as I've only got a 5 mile trip down to work and a 5 mile trip up those bleeding hills.

 

[flecc]

The current eZee Torq and Forza models from Onbike give well over 700 watt peaks and can sustain those over any length of hill you might find. They now use a 14 Ah battery as standard so the range has improved over the previous 10Ah ones

They are hub motor types of course so are best on hills just short of the steepest possible, the main gain being in the speed of climb. For the very steepest of hills like 1 in 5 or steeper a bike with a crank motor that drives through the bike's gears can be better, though at slower climb speeds.
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[eddieo]

what motors do Ezee use? they seem to be so much more powerful then the competition.........

 

[flecc]

what motors do Ezee use? they seem to be so much more powerful then the competition.........

They used to use the Suzhou Bafang motor Eddie, but set up with their own controller. These days they use their own motor design which performs similarly.

Wisper use the same SB motor on the 905 series but with a controller setup that gives about 550 watts peak, so they get a longer range in consequence.
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[NRG]

Yep, I've mentioned it a number of times before the motor will take what the controller can feed it and what the battery can supply....increase the current delivery capability of the controller and as long as the battery can support the discharge rate your peak power will rise accordingly.....