Illegal Bikes

[flecc]

Thanks flecc.

(Blewit: flecc doesn't agree!)


A

Not just me, several owners have posted about this and member Fecn is particularly disappointed that the power isn't enough to take the bike up some North Downs slopes, he has to push a bit as well. That's 25 kilos of Agattu, so how much would it help the bike and your weight combined?

Obviously it would add something, but that's very small, though using the lowest gear will help a bit. The reason is quite simple, the power you get from these units is a ratio of the effort you put into the torque sensor. When walking alongside there is no input to the torque sensor so the motor gives the minimum, the thumb throttle merely being a bypass of the pedelec rotation function.
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[Old Timer]

Been, done, T-shirt.

With one leg (and gord only knows how the poor sods with NO legs manage), anyway, with one leg you have to put your GOOD foot on the concrete, and then push the pedal down with your plastic foot. Which works, a lot of the time, but then you have to have got enough momentum to get your good foot on its pedal, too, and then pedal away.

This has drawbacks. Overweight rider, or a slightly UPHILL start, and you are cattled. Just cannot get enough push with the plastic one to get to that 2mph you need to maintain level flight. I used to push my bike round corners to find a bit of flat road, then start off and hoped to get up enough steam to go round the corner onto a hilly bit. Usually worked.

Anyway, Kalkhoffs were fine and powerful, and very nearly addressed this problem. But not quite.

(Why start with plastic foot on pedal? Because without feeling, it's almost impossible to position your plastic one on a MOVING pedal!)


Allen.

Allen

The slightest movement of the crank on the aurora sees the pedelec in operation( I mean slightest to the point of having to get used to it) Not saying you should buy an aurora but the technology obviously exists so don`t panic. If it`s poss on the Aurora then I see no reason that it won`t be poss on other bikes. Might be worth a call to Jim at Alien to discuss how they have managed it and can it be put on other bikes.
To give you an idea, if I stop pedalling then the motor cuts out, if I then run over some rough ground that moves my pedal a touch then the motor will on ocassions cut in! that`s how fine they have gotten it. I`ll have a closer look in the morning but from memory I think the normal round magnets that are pretty standard in the pedelec disk seem to have been replaced with what looks like sort of staples (probably magnetised and maybe the fact that they are long rather than round is the key.)
Basically, if you can move the crank you get assist.

Dave

 

[allen-uk]

Basically, if you can move the crank you get assist.

That does sound fractionally more sensitive than the Kalkhoff, and thinking back, I did only try the big beasts for a few minutes each, so maybe half an hour would have been better. Good to have possibilities.


Allen.

 

[eTim]

I'm sure I was in a discussion a couple of months ago on here where the conclusion was that nearly ALL ebikes in the UK are illegal because they do not bear the manufacturers specification plate? Regardless of power output etc!

 

[jbond]

I'm sure I was in a discussion a couple of months ago on here where the conclusion was that nearly ALL ebikes in the UK are illegal because they do not bear the manufacturers specification plate? Regardless of power output etc!

Be careful what you wish for. Or we'll have plates that say "not for road use" and build certification for home builds. Reminds me of M/C exhausts that are effectively legal if they have an EU stamp regardless of how noisy they actually are. So there are places you can buy a stamp.

The Aurora magnet plate is a hard rubber circle with 8 (or is it 10) embedded magnets that go past a reed switch and pushed onto the crank. So it's like a speed sensor that triggers in an 8th or a 10th of turn.

Going back to the thread topic. It may be worth doing the standard bicycle things. Pump the tyres up. Check and if necessary free up and adjust wheel, crank and pedal bearings. Adjust the brakes so they don't rub. Oil/grease the chain and rear mech. Even with geared motors you should be able to free wheel almost as fast as a conventional bike. The only real difference in performance compared with a plain bike should be the extra weight going up hill.

 

[eTim]

Be careful what you wish for. Or we'll have plates that say "not for road use" and build certification for home builds. Reminds me of M/C exhausts that are effectively legal if they have an EU stamp regardless of how noisy they actually are. So there are places you can buy a stamp.

The Aurora magnet plate is a hard rubber circle with 8 (or is it 10) embedded magnets that go past a reed switch and pushed onto the crank. So it's like a speed sensor that triggers in an 8th or a 10th of turn.

Going back to the thread topic. It may be worth doing the standard bicycle things. Pump the tyres up. Check and if necessary free up and adjust wheel, crank and pedal bearings. Adjust the brakes so they don't rub. Oil/grease the chain and rear mech. Even with geared motors you should be able to free wheel almost as fast as a conventional bike. The only real difference in performance compared with a plain bike should be the extra weight going up hill.

I wasn't aware I was wishing for anything, the OP posted about others posting about how illegal their ebikes are on an open forum and that one day they/we will be caught out.

I was pointing out that I was involved in a thread a couple of months back on the regular discussion of the legality of ebikes. It took me some time to extract the 'truth' but I think the answer from those in the 'know' is that under UK/EU law all our bikes should have a manufacturers plate stating the power output of the motor etc otherwise the bike is technically illegal to be used on the public highway.

I was just making that point and the fact that if you own a bike without a plate then you are technically riding illegally, so that any discussion about power outputs etc, whilst interesting, is nugatory in the context of determining if the bike is legal or not!!

 

[flecc]

It's true, the law requires that all e-bikes have a manufacturer plate specifying the whole bike's weight, the motor wattage and the battery voltage. The plate should be in a prominent position on the bike where it can easily be examined, similar to the rules on motor vehicles displaying tax discs.

The current limits are 200 watts and 40 kilos for solo bikes, 250 watts and 60 kilos for e-trikes.
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[Jimod]

It's true, the law requires that all e-bikes have a manufacturer plate specifying the whole bike's weight, the motor wattage and the battery voltage. The plate should be in a prominent position on the bike where it can easily be examined, similar to the rules on motor vehicles displaying tax discs.

The current limits are 200 watts and 40 kilos for solo bikes, 250 watts and 60 kilos for e-trikes.
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So, are all the 250 watt bikes illegal? I'm now confused about what to buy.

 

[eddieo]

So, are all the 250 watt bikes illegal? I'm now confused about what to buy.

just get a 250 watt bike, everyone else has and law changing soonish to EU 250 watt anyway.

 

[flecc]

So, are all the 250 watt bikes illegal? I'm now confused about what to buy.

Strictly speaking yes, but ignore it anyway. The consumer advice pages on this have been archived by the DfT since they are in the process of realigning our law with the EU. There it's 250 watts, and for years suppliers have been selling 250 watt e-bikes in the UK with the DfT fully aware.

Behind all this is that the EU law and 250 watts has been in force here since 10th November 2003, but our civil service forgot to cancel our old law as required by the EU. Therefore the old British legislation has still been around as well for our courts to follow, with the DfT saying that technically it still applied, while ignoring it themselves.

A very British shambles!
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[jbond]

I've become interested in the next stage up. I tried to find some info about electrically assisted/powered two wheelers that are capable of more than 250w/25kmph but I'm having trouble finding anything official. Can anyone point me at a url/doc? It seems that there are 2 and possibly 3 stages.
- Mopeds. < 4Kw, < 45kmph
- Light PTWs. < 33bhp/25Kw. Legal under UK learner legislation for the first 2 years after passing a motorcycle test
- Full PTWs. Everything else.

Has anyone got any experience or know anyone who has of registering a home build pedelec as a moped or as a full motorcycle?

It seems to me there are some possibilities now for home builds that would do more than 45kmph, might still have pedals but might have less than 4Kw of electric power. I'm wondering what's involved in registration, licensing, type approval and so on.

 

[flecc]

Almost everything you need to know about this is in my thread here:

Single Vehicle Type Approval

I don't know of anyone doing it to date.
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[Neil]

Why the 16mph limit?

Where did this 16mph limit come from? Was slowly going home eating a snack when I was passed by a lycra boy. Not on to miss a challenge I finished my snack and rode up behind him. He was riding a one cog bike. Hearing me behind him off he went. We ended up doing 25MPH on the flat and when he could not shake me off he tried 23MPH going up small hills. It took all my effort to keep up with him. He clearly was limited by his single gear. Sadly after 2 miles he got a puncture and the fun was over. Why are we saddled with a 16MPH limit and is this not the reason why there are so many illegal bikes.

 

[allen-uk]

Where did this 16mph limit come from?

Well, it might be that it was the only viable alternative to fully licensing both machines and riders (driving licences, MOTs, insurance, etc., i.e. just as small mopeds and motor bikes).

Or, making electric bikes only legal to riders over 17.

Unenforceable, of course, whereas the speed limit (pitched fairly randomly, but with some justification, where it is) is at least observable and objectively provable.

How would you do it, Neil? Would you have 14-year-olds racing round at 25 or 30 mph on electric push-bikes? I didn't think so!


Allen.

 

[flecc]

Where did this 16mph limit come from? Was slowly going home eating a snack when I was passed by a lycra boy. Not on to miss a challenge I finished my snack and rode up behind him. He was riding a one cog bike. Hearing me behind him off he went. We ended up doing 25MPH on the flat and when he could not shake me off he tried 23MPH going up small hills. It took all my effort to keep up with him. He clearly was limited by his single gear. Sadly after 2 miles he got a puncture and the fun was over. Why are we saddled with a 16MPH limit and is this not the reason why there are so many illegal bikes.

The answer is simple Neil. Sporting riders like the one who passed you don't use e-bikes. Electric assistance is used by utility riders, shoppers, commuters, leisure cyclists etc. They do not ride and have never ridden unpowered bikes consistently at those high speeds, they commonly ride at around 12 mph much of the time, often less.

Accordingly the assist limit was originally set at 12 mph for e-bikes, but as a concession it was raised to 15 mph in the late 1980s. The EU equivalent is 25 kph which is about 15.5 mph. It has never been 16 mph. There is absolutely no chance that it will be increased again, and I think that makes sense. The whole point of the present limits is retaining the e-bike as a normal bicycle doing the normal speeds that utility bikes use. Turning them into sports cycling equivalents raises the prospect of a need for insurance, number plates for identification etc.

In Germany and Switzerland they have a higher speed 25 mph e-bike class, but in both cases it means registration, number plates and insurance and even compulsory helmets, restrictions none of us want.

The reason we have so many illegal bikes is that we now have a much more lawless society than in earlier ages.
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[Teejay]

The logic of that is that sporting riders too should have compulsory helmets, registration, insurance and so on.

I'm with Neil here. 20 or so years ago, chain freshly oiled, tyres pumped up hard, going at it hammer-and-tongs and I could manage 20 or so on the flat and I was breaking no law.

Now, late at night, bombing down a long hill at 30 on my Agattu, way past any assist and again, I'm breaking no law.

Have the timerity to tweak the gearing so that it does 20 on the flat and I'm some sort of despicable criminal. What's the difference?

 

[flecc]

The difference Tejay is what I said above, that utility riders do not ride at 20 mph and more on the flat, 12 mph is more typical, so that zone is where the assist speed limit is logically set. If 20 mph assist is allowed, the average speed of e-bikes would rise well above that of unpowered utility cyclists.

What we achieve downhill, what sports riders achieve, what speed we could reach with a big effort after hard pumping tyres etc are all completely irrelevant to the facts of normal utility cycling.

What is relevant is that the added power is to assist to maintain normal utility cycling in adverse conditions like hills and headwinds, not to create a new class of higher speed utility cyclists. Assist, not increase, that is the point of the legislation and it's unlikely ever to be changed, so arguing against it as so often happens in here is pointless.

I have no view on the relevance of registration for high speed bikes etc., just quoting what is in force elsewhere in Europe and what would be imposed if we ever achieve a higher speed class as well.
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[Alex728]

Almost everything you need to know about this is in my thread here:

Single Vehicle Type Approval

I don't know of anyone doing it to date.
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I am aware of an easy chair mounted to a large motorcycle chassis being successfully put through the approval, and saw with my own eyes a few months ago what can only be described as a giant go-kart with 6 blokes in it dressed as traditional Suffolk yokels heading along the B1113 towards Stowmarket.

No kidding - I was stone cold sober at the time - I think it might have been something to do with one of the summer fetes/shows around that area. As far as I could tell it was road legal (even by local standards they would not have got far otherwise).

some friends of mine convert large vehicles into homes and workshops and their views are that the VOSA chaps are "firm but fair" and tend to be sympathetic and helpful towards those with "interesting" vehicles provided they aren't putting something genuinely dangerous on the roads. I suppose an interesting vehicle must liven up the inspectors day, compared to endless commercial lorries and vans...