Illegal Bikes

I have a feeling that sooner or later e-bikers are going to regret some of the stuff on this forum.

 

I understand the feeling that the law need only be obeyed if you agree with it but as the main e-bike discussion forum nationally, it might be better to tone things down rather than make it obvious.

 

I cannot see that bikes that can be powered to almost double the legal powered limit will be tolerated for long - riding uninsured without a helmet and without VED - is what it amounts to legally .

 

Our unfettered use of legally powered e-bikes can be thrown away very easily.

 

No, I'm not being po-faced, I'm just trying to say that open discussion of illegal bikes and contempt for the law, silly law or not, is likely to force everyone with an e-bike into a straitjacket sooner or later.

 

Couldn't people using out and out illegal bikes discuss them by PM or could there be a separate forum and get the rest of us off the hook?

 

Someone here was recently asking how he could defraud an insurance company. I noticed that that thread was quickly removed.

 

I get the feeling I may be the only one who feels this way - am I?

Not at all and far from it. It seems to be that a manufacturer can introduce an illegal road bike on the open market and it becomes exceptable to use on the road, and to discuss it generally........

 

with my health issues and weight, if I can manage on a 250 watt bike and get pleasure from it, I would think most reasonable people can as well.

Edited August 27, 201015 yr by eddieo

I agree completely. The freedom from legislation that Pedelecs currently enjoy is not to be taken lightly.

I appreciate the point you are making Lemmy, but it's clear that the DfT have known the true situation for many years and we have a number of police officer members. There's clearly a blind eye operating.

 

I'm certainly against higher motor powers and don't contribute or advise on those threads, other than suggesting a moped. They are the greatest threat to our status.

 

I'm not worried about higher speeds though for two reasons. First that bikes are easily capable of going much faster than the assist limit on the flat, second that we are about to become pedelec only, meaning that it will be impossible to detect if the rider or the motor is producing the speed.

 

It's also worth noting that the enforced UK law in future will be EU law which has been in force everywhere in Europe including the UK since November 10th 2003. As such, it's extremely unlikely that any comments in our English language predominantly UK forum could bring about any change in the EU law.

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As such, it's extremely unlikely that any comments in our English language predominantly UK forum could bring about any change in the EU law.

 

I see no point in even taking the risk. Unlikely does not mean impossible. Why take such a risk at all since their is nothing to gain by it?

 

It's no interest to me or any of my business what other people actually do with their bikes - or vice versa - I just would prefer that it is discussed elsewhere and I am not tarred with that brush.

 

I had noticed that you don't advise on how to make e-bikes illegal, by the way.

I think it comes down to common sense, if you are behaving sensibly, and not presenting a danger to others, then there is no reason to have the book of law thrown at you. After all, have you seen how many people exceed the speed limit on the motorway? I'd contend that it's most of them. If there is no "letter of the law" enforcement in this far more obvious and arguably dangerous context, then I think the few of us that go 4-5mph faster than we should have little to worry about.

 

The problem comes less from the courts of justice, but from the court of public opinion. If/when an irresponsible e-cyclist injures of kills an old person or a child, then we'll be vilified, and the law enforcers will have no option but to be stringent.

 

IMHO.

I think you've missed my point. I'm not concerned whether people ride illegal bikes any more than I am concerned that people other than me get burgled. Nor am I concerned with whether the law is silly or not.

 

It's just that I'm not sure we should advertise our contempt for the law here.

 

After all, have you seen how many people exceed the speed limit on the motorway? I'd contend that it's most of them.

 

Indeed, the "official" unofficial speed limit on UK motorways is obviously 80 mph (and rightly so too, since today's cars are far safer at 80 mph than most of the 1960s cars were at 70 mph when that limit was first applied).

 

That 80 mph is the generally accepted motorway speed limit most of the time, but in the very early hours it's 100 mph and I'm among them from time to time when I go down to Dorset. No-one can tell me the police don't know this, they very obviously do since it's always true, but they have a pragmatic and realistic view on when enforcement is appropriate.

 

The police have more to attend to than looking for e-bike non-compliance, and the DfT have always been inclined to take a back seat in such issues.

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Edited August 27, 201015 yr by flecc

It's just that I'm not sure we should advertise our contempt for the law here.

 

The irony of it..

 

Psss I share your contempt but I'm saying nothing.

If you ran someone over on your bike and caused them a serious injury, or worse, the Police would almost certainly seize the bike and have it scrutinised by a vehicle examiner. If it had been modified or adapted to provide assistance beyond 15 mph, they would discover this and you could be in a spot if bother. The bike would probably be classed as a Motor Vehicle under The Road Traffic Act which would bring with it further grief, no insurance etc etc. You may even find yourself facing a compensation claim with no insurance policy to finance an award made against you.

 

Leading on from that, if you had a few jars at the local and cycled home on a modified ebike, you could end up with a driving ban if caught. Probably unlikely as a result of a routine check, but if you injured someone........

Edited August 27, 201015 yr by tillson

Lemmy

 

I sort of agree but you creating a thread about it only brings more attention in my book.

Who amongst us sticks to 15mph assisted?

 

To be honest it`s more about taking the pressure off on hills when you are not 100% as fit as you used to be when younger or fitter for almost everyone that pushes the boundaries and it isn`t exactly the crime of the century, is it!

Taking a pint of milk off of the doorstep so that I miss my early morning cuppa! now that is criminal:D and deserves to be clamped down on;)

Out of interest, what is the status of bikes that have an "off-road switch"? These are normally restricted to 15mph, to comply with the law, but then can do more if a rocker is switched on. Could such a bike be treated as a non-licensed bicycle, as long as the switch is in the "legal" position? Is there any guidance from the DVLA on this?

 

On a related note, I noticed on eBay yesterday that some e-bikes can be bought running at 500W, 750W, 1000W and even 1200W - they must be a handful to ride, even off the road!

Dave, being decrepit is no defence in the eyes of the Law:D

 

I think Lemmy's point was that he does not care what others do? it is the endless discussion and promotion of such, on an open forum that is the problem....

 

Halver, a likle tweaking does no one any harm. and an off road switch is unlawful, and why most manufacturers have withdrawn it. blatantly riding a 1000 watt bike is surely entirely different?

 

UK law is odd in that you can sell anything you want, and that is fine, but to use it is illegal

Edited August 27, 201015 yr by eddieo

Out of interest, what is the status of bikes that have an "off-road switch"? These are normally restricted to 15mph, to comply with the law, but then can do more if a rocker is switched on. Could such a bike be treated as a non-licensed bicycle, as long as the switch is in the "legal" position? Is there any guidance from the DVLA on this?

 

They are illegal, the e-bike must not be capable of exceeding the assist speed limit. The DfT has previously confirmed this.

 

 

 

UK law is odd in that you can sell anything you want, and that is fine, but to use it is illegal

 

Although usually so, arguably not in this case Eddie, the law applies to the e-bikes, not their usage. It's the bike that is supposed to be plated as legal and comply with the law in terms of power and assist speed. Since legal e-bikes must comply with their construction regulations, anyone selling one when it does not comply is guilty of inciting a breach of the law, even if they don't say it's legal. That's why sellers of over powered or over fast ones usually declare they are not road legal to cover themselves.

 

It follows that illegal e-bikes are not being sold, since if they are declared as not complying they are not e-bikes but low powered motorbikes.

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I have said this before, it is just a matter of time before these cheap high power kits become a problem. Right now we are a fringe minority, foil hat brigade hence no one really cares. But the moment the Neds get a hold of them and start using them for their activities this will all change. I recon its only a matter of time until this free reign comes to an end. The only thing keeping this from happening is these kits are still expensive and you need a slight know how to put it together. Now the standard of kids coming out of schools today probably do not have the skills or motivation to fit them. As long as they can get cheap mopeds etc we will stay under the radar.

As far as I'm concerned, the power-weight ratio of my 750Watter and the bike and me is just about right. The usual cack-handed EU legislation fails to take that into account.

As far as I'm concerned, the power-weight ratio of my 750Watter and the bike and me is just about right. The usual cack-handed EU legislation fails to take that into account.

 

Many of us agree with that view Dave, I believe the power needed is a matter for designers only and no business of governments. Their business is speed limitation alone. In that respect the Chinese are more sensible, their ebikes typically around 700 watts and climb well, but an assist speed limit applies.

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I have said this before, it is just a matter of time before these cheap high power kits become a problem. Right now we are a fringe minority, foil hat brigade hence no one really cares.

 

Yes - a fringe minority within a minority [cyclists] -no one will ever care.There is no chance of ebikes becoming a form of mainstream transport .High prices or not -most kids probably think ebikes uncool and always will do.Collective self importance is as equally deluded as individual .The irony of the original post should not be lost !!!

I am 50/50 on this they just might get more popular due to financial pressures but certainly not mainstream. But you know what, that just suits me fine, i like my tin foil hat.

I have said this before, it is just a matter of time before these cheap high power kits become a problem. Right now we are a fringe minority, foil hat brigade hence no one really cares.

 

Yes - a fringe minority within a minority [cyclists] -no one will ever care.There is no chance of ebikes becoming a form of mainstream transport .High prices or not -most kids probably think ebikes uncool and always will do.Collective self importance is as equally deluded as individual .The irony of the original post should not be lost !!!

I'm not so sure they are uncool, I'm not the only member on here to have an ebike admired and commented on positively by children between 10 and 15.

Having recently taken out a 15 year old on my Alien I can assure anybody that e-bikes are most definitely considered cool!

Edited August 28, 201015 yr by NRG

The thing is about illegality is that when it becomes accepted that, say 18mph powered is OK, that becomes the norm. Then someone says, well, if 18mph is OK, why not 20mph, it's only a couple of miles an hour.

 

Then we end up with people openly discussing bikes on this forum that do 28mph powered.

 

I fail to see how this differs materially from a 50cc motor scooter, which, when driven on a car license, is restricted to 30mph. Is there acceptance here that it's OK to drive one of these without helmet, insurance or tax?

 

What is the difference between 28mph on an electric motor or an IC engine?

 

Round my way at the moment the police are having a crackdown on illegal number plates. A trivial matter, changing the type faces on them from the legal one. It was being ignored by the law but in doing this, became so rife that the police have been effectively slapped in the face by open law breaking. So they have been forced to crack down.

 

My argument is this and eddieo stated it perfectly - I don't care what anyone else does but if you want to discuss highly illegal bikes, I just think it better not to do it here and give the impression that ALL e-bikers are just looking for a tax, insurance and helmet and VED free motorcycle.

 

Many of us ride e-bikes because they are e-bicycles - not electric motorcycles , of which there are plenty available.

+1 from me Lemmy

What is the difference between 28mph on an electric motor or an IC engine?

 

The kinetic energy absorbed by the pedestrian when you pile into them.

 

I agree with the points raised. At the moment e bikes sit nicely under the radar. As soon as there is a nasty accident involving an illegally modified bike, the media will sensationalise it and all ebike and their riders will be vilified. Ebikes, whether illegal or not, will be portrayed as the latest bout of lawlessness to ravage our streets and bring death to our offspring.

The kinetic energy absorbed by the pedestrian when you pile into them.

 

I agree with the points raised. At the moment e bikes sit nicely under the radar. As soon as there is a nasty accident involving an illegally modified bike, the media will sensationalise it and all ebike and their riders will be vilified. Ebikes, whether illegal or not, will be portrayed as the latest bout of lawlessness to ravage our streets and bring death to our offspring.

Then they will become more popular overnight when people know they can be unrestricted just like all the 50cc mopeds out there.