Fascism returns to Spain

[Zlatan]

Tom,
I do support the right of a people to self determination, and the EU response to the referendum falls far short of what I would like to see.
The obvious way forward is for Madrid to acknowledge that there is a demand for independence and to organise a proper referendum under EU supervision to determine the real will of the Catalonian people.
And to accept the result.

Mike , you are not thinking this through. From my readings in Wilki etc, Spain already is very devolved with some 50 autonomous regions, and with extensive local powers and local democracy. It is likely that some of the other regions would like perhaps more autonomy also. But they have a consitution. All the other regions and all the other people's in Spain have a democratic right to be consulted . The way that is done is by a referendum. Despite all the big words about consulting the people what the Catalan officials have done and threaten to do is deeply undemocratic. It would be defranchising all the other regions.
The request by the Catalan officials to have EU engagement is tantamount to equating themselves as a sovereign power equivalent to Spain. It is a ploy and if the EU were foolish enough to seek to mediate out of some desire to stop violence, then they would de facto have destroyed Spain. and a civil war would ensue.
Spain has a court system, it has a constitutional court and it has the ability to change its consitution by referenda of all the citizens.[/QUOTE]

Daniel...you seem well informed about constitutional rights and our responsibilities towards those rights. From my brief research it seems to me Catalonia and its current borders date back to around 1649, later than that Cerdagne ( originally " Spanish/ Catalan) became French territory. Information regarding the size of French Catalonia is at best contradictory, with French Catalan numbers varying between 120, 000 to circa 1.5million. Now my question, taking into account the age of border placement,the confusing information surrounding even the whereabouts if the Catalan region.( some see all PO/ Languedoc Roussillon as part of Catalan) how can any Spanish constitution have consulted and acted upon the wishes of Catalans, especially in 1649. The constitution by definition is for and put in place by the Spanish. Did the Catalans have input into this, if so your point is correct, and Catalans should go through democratic process throughout all regions of Spain. If on the other hand they are operating under a Constitution formed just post Franco in 1978 with little input into its formation why should they follow the rules of a constitutional code enforced on them by a foreign power.
Did Catalans vote in the 1978 referendum to accept Spanish rule or was it just expected of them. I suspect the latter, they were unlikely to derail the then Spanish attempts at democracy, sparking a return to the Franco suppression. The 1978 acceptance of Spanish Constitutional reign was without doubt the regions only choice in 1978. To then quote that code back at the Catalans really is harking back to the Franco regime. Either accept the code or look what happens ? I don't think it takes into account at all the disassociation Catalans feel toward the Spanish and to a lesser degree the French.

 

[Woosh]

Did Catalans vote in the 1978 referendum to accept Spanish rule or was it just expected of them. I suspect the latter, they were unlikely to derail the then Spanish attempts at democracy, sparking a return to the Franco suppression. The 1978 acceptance of Spanish Constitutional reign was without doubt the regions only choice in 1978. To then quote that code back at the Catalans really is harking back to the Franco regime. Either accept the code or look what happens ? I don't think it takes into account at all the disassociation Catalans feel toward the Spanish and to a lesser degree the French.

this is beautifully written, zlatan.
French Catalans also wanted their autonomy for as long as anyone can remember but the French system of government makes independence virtually impossible.

 

[flecc]

French Catalans also wanted their autonomy for as long as anyone can remember but the French system of government makes independence virtually impossible.

But how many? It doesn't seem at all clear that there is a majority of Spanish Catalans for independence and I wouldn't be surprised to find the same is true of French Catalonia, even if we knew what that was.

I've a horrible suspicion that referenda in both would be likely to return closely balanced outcomes, leaving them in the same divided and conflicted mess we in the UK are in following our independence one.
.

 

[mike killay]

But how many? It doesn't seem at all clear that there is a majority of Spanish Catalans for independence and I wouldn't be surprised to find the same is true of French Catalonia, even if we knew what that was.

I've a horrible suspicion that referenda in both would be likely to return closely balanced outcomes, leaving them in the same divided and conflicted mess we in the UK are in following our independence one.
.

Much the same in Wales, here, the devolution vote was very narrow, but try to suggest otherwise and you get vilified.
Also we have the language problem, just like Catalunya. It can be incredibly divisive.

 

[Zlatan]

this is beautifully written, zlatan.
French Catalans also wanted their autonomy for as long as anyone can remember but the French system of government makes independence virtually impossible.

Thanks Woosh..

 

[anotherkiwi]

But how many? It doesn't seem at all clear that there is a majority of Spanish Catalans for independence and I wouldn't be surprised to find the same is true of French Catalonia, even if we knew what that was.

I've a horrible suspicion that referenda in both would be likely to return closely balanced outcomes, leaving them in the same divided and conflicted mess we in the UK are in following our independence one.
.

To give you an idea of the usage of the langue d'Oc (Occitan) and it's variants (one of which is Catalan):

French Catalonia is reasonably small and limited to the Eastern Pyrenees. Under the rule of Franco there was of course a spike of Catalan speaking refugees.

 

[Danidl]

Mike , you are not thinking this through. From my readings in Wilki etc, Spain already is very devolved with some 50 autonomous regions, and with extensive local powers and local democracy. It is likely that some of the other regions would like perhaps more autonomy also. But they have a consitution. All the other regions and all the other people's in Spain have a democratic right to be consulted . The way that is done is by a referendum. Despite all the big words about consulting the people what the Catalan officials have done and threaten to do is deeply undemocratic. It would be defranchising all the other regions.
The request by the Catalan officials to have EU engagement is tantamount to equating themselves as a sovereign power equivalent to Spain. It is a ploy and if the EU were foolish enough to seek to mediate out of some desire to stop violence, then they would de facto have destroyed Spain. and a civil war would ensue.
Spain has a court system, it has a constitutional court and it has the ability to change its consitution by referenda of all the citizens.

Daniel...you seem well informed about constitutional rights and our responsibilities towards those rights. From my brief research it seems to me Catalonia and its current borders date back to around 1649, later than that Cerdagne ( originally " Spanish/ Catalan) became French territory. Information regarding the size of French Catalonia is at best contradictory, with French Catalan numbers varying between 120, 000 to circa 1.5million. Now my question, taking into account the age of border placement,the confusing information surrounding even the whereabouts if the Catalan region.( some see all PO/ Languedoc Roussillon as part of Catalan) how can any Spanish constitution have consulted and acted upon the wishes of Catalans, especially in 1649. The constitution by definition is for and put in place by the Spanish. Did the Catalans have input into this, if so your point is correct, and Catalans should go through democratic process throughout all regions of Spain. If on the other hand they are operating under a Constitution formed just post Franco in 1978 with little input into its formation why should they follow the rules of a constitutional code enforced on them by a foreign power.
Did Catalans vote in the 1978 referendum to accept Spanish rule or was it just expected of them. I suspect the latter, they were unlikely to derail the then Spanish attempts at democracy, sparking a return to the Franco suppression. The 1978 acceptance of Spanish Constitutional reign was without doubt the regions only choice in 1978. To then quote that code back at the Catalans really is harking back to the Franco regime. Either accept the code or look what happens ? I don't think it takes into account at all the disassociation Catalans feel toward the Spanish and to a lesser degree the French.[/QUOTE]
.. as a descendent of Brian Boru I claim the mull of kintyre and all the western isles back for ireland. we held them as recently as 1014. .. see how nonsensical such a claim is?.
Going back to medieval history to claim justification is neatly as absurd. In the case of the 1978 Spanish constitution I would assume that they counted the votes in what is now recognized as Catalonia and is the geographical area over which the current Catalan government has jurisdiction. It would not have included areas of France . Apparently the Catalans were the most enthused by the 1978 constitution as they vote was higher slightly than other regions.
Were they naive?, Did they expect even greater autonomy, perhaps but that is irrelevant. There is a full new generation born and brought to adulthood since. . If they want a political settlement they can do what other democrats do and debate it and negotiate at the Madrid parliament.
The suggestion that the eu would sponsor negotiations is in my opinion and for the reasons previously stated wrong. They have representation available to them with their peers in the other Spanish regions.
There are lots and lots of disputes. I tend not to be a conspiracy nut but I sense the hand of outside agencies helping to stir up old dissents so my question.. rhetorical is "who stands to benefit?"
During Ireland s recent troubles there were numbers of outside agencies willing to support factions with weapons etc. From Germany in 1916 to Libya in the 1980s . It's a cheap way of hurting and damaging foes.. In our case the British empire. So if the eu were to suffer further damage who benefits?

 

[flecc]

So if the eu were to suffer further damage who benefits?

Financiers, money traders et al. They detested the euro and have tried to bring it down ever since its creation since it removed so many opportunities to make money by playing the European currencies against each other. They know that weakening the EU is the only way they will ever be able to bring down the euro.
.

 

[Woosh]

Financiers, money traders et al. They detested the euro and have tried to bring it down ever since its creation since it removed so many opportunities to make money by playing the European currencies against each other. They know that weakening the EU is the only way they will ever be able to bring down the euro.
.

they can make just as much pushing it up.
that's what they've been doing since Mr Trump won the election.

 

[Danidl]

Financiers, money traders et al. They detested the euro and have tried to bring it down ever since its creation since it removed so many opportunities to make money by playing the European currencies against each other. They know that weakening the EU is the only way they will ever be able to bring down the euro.
.

My thoughts were directed much further east towards a big bear. A weakened eu would have less energy to support the Ukraine.

 

[flecc]

they can make just as much pushing it up.
that's what they've been doing since Mr Trump won the election.

No, there's nothing like the flexibility of being able to trade a large number of currencies. Reducing that to a minimum removes so many opportunities. The simple proof is the way they've constantly attacked the euro since its creation.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Daniel...you seem well informed about constitutional rights and our responsibilities towards those rights. From my brief research it seems to me Catalonia and its current borders date back to around 1649, later than that Cerdagne ( originally " Spanish/ Catalan) became French territory. Information regarding the size of French Catalonia is at best contradictory, with French Catalan numbers varying between 120, 000 to circa 1.5million. Now my question, taking into account the age of border placement,the confusing information surrounding even the whereabouts if the Catalan region.( some see all PO/ Languedoc Roussillon as part of Catalan) how can any Spanish constitution have consulted and acted upon the wishes of Catalans, especially in 1649. The constitution by definition is for and put in place by the Spanish. Did the Catalans have input into this, if so your point is correct, and Catalans should go through democratic process throughout all regions of Spain. If on the other hand they are operating under a Constitution formed just post Franco in 1978 with little input into its formation why should they follow the rules of a constitutional code enforced on them by a foreign power.
Did Catalans vote in the 1978 referendum to accept Spanish rule or was it just expected of them. I suspect the latter, they were unlikely to derail the then Spanish attempts at democracy, sparking a return to the Franco suppression. The 1978 acceptance of Spanish Constitutional reign was without doubt the regions only choice in 1978. To then quote that code back at the Catalans really is harking back to the Franco regime. Either accept the code or look what happens ? I don't think it takes into account at all the disassociation Catalans feel toward the Spanish and to a lesser degree the French.

.. as a descendent of Brian Boru I claim the mull of kintyre and all the western isles back for ireland. we held them as recently as 1014. .. see how nonsensical such a claim is?.
Going back to medieval history to claim justification is neatly as absurd. In the case of the 1978 Spanish constitution I would assume that they counted the votes in what is now recognized as Catalonia and is the geographical area over which the current Catalan government has jurisdiction. It would not have included areas of France . Apparently the Catalans were the most enthused by the 1978 constitution as they vote was higher slightly than other regions.
Were they naive?, Did they expect even greater autonomy, perhaps but that is irrelevant. There is a full new generation born and brought to adulthood since. . If they want a political settlement they can do what other democrats do and debate it and negotiate at the Madrid parliament.
The suggestion that the eu would sponsor negotiations is in my opinion and for the reasons previously stated wrong. They have representation available to them with their peers in the other Spanish regions.
There are lots and lots of disputes. I tend not to be a conspiracy nut but I sense the hand of outside agencies helping to stir up old dissents so my question.. rhetorical is "who stands to benefit?"
During Ireland s recent troubles there were numbers of outside agencies willing to support factions with weapons etc. From Germany in 1916 to Libya in the 1980s . It's a cheap way of hurting and damaging foes.. In our case the British empire. So if the eu were to suffer further damage who benefits?[/QUOTE]

I obviously didn't make my salient point well. I am not claiming ancient history to decide borders. I am suggesting the current constitution you are claiming should be followed by Catalans was a Spanish construct in 1978, its aims of which were to bring democracy to Spain and nothing else. How big a part did Catalans have in formulating it and we can assume their support of it was purely to rid the whole country of Franco politics, and not point out any failings within not giving Catalns more independabce. It would be quite an insignificant issue following the Franco regime.
Any group should be allowed self determination if democratic process has been followed within it. I don't agree with the process myself but if enough Yorkshire folk wanted it...so be it.

 

[flecc]

Any group should be allowed self determination if democratic process has been followed within it. I don't agree with the process myself but if enough Yorkshire folk wanted it...so be it.

No, all others affected have to take part in the decision. That was what was wrong about the Scottish independence referendum, the rest of the UK didn't get their vote.
.

 

[Zlatan]

No, all others affected have to take part in the decision. That was what was wrong about the Scottish independence referendum, the rest of the UK didn't get their vote.
.

We,ll have to agree to disagree on that Danid...Could affect entire world ??? Your premise means once you are part of a massive region...effectively you could never leave. Any local disagreements wether independent or not could be negotiated.
Why should a,person living in Cornwall with no experience or knowledge of situation in lets say Scotland have anything what so ever to do with a Scottish decision...and vice versa.

 

[Danidl]

We,ll have to agree to disagree on that Danid...Could affect entire world ??? Your premise means once you are part of a massive region...effectively you could never leave. Any local disagreements wether independent or not could be negotiated.
Why should a,person living in Cornwall with no experience or knowledge of situation in lets say Scotland have anything what so ever to do with a Scottish decision...and vice versa.

The parallels with Brexit are obvious. The UK as a sovereign state choose to join a community of sovereign states. Part of that treaty was that any sovereign state could leave .. the article 50 .
The UK has by conquest and by other means taken over the island, and considers itself the sovereign power and that it's parliament has jurisdiction from the channel islands out to the Faroes and west to Strabane. It has allowed limited autonomy to three of its regions Wales, NI and Scotland. Were any of these to declare a UDI, they would have troops from the other regions and martial law declared within 24 hours.
Why would people in Cornwall have an interest in the Trossachs, because 1. They probably own vast tracts of it in the form of private trusts and pension funds and 2 they are citizens of the same sovereign state.

Unlike the UK, most countries have written consitutions, which determine the fundamental contract between the state and it's citizens. Usually the first or second articles define the geographical extent of the country. Simply unless you define this you cannot say who is or who is not a potential citizen. This can be changed by referendum . In the case of Ireland, our 1937 consitution claimed jurisdiction over the entire island, including the six counties, then and currently under UK administration. By act of referendum, the Irish people of the 26 counties removed these articles, so as to enhance the success of the good Friday Agreement and to convert a claim into an aspiration. My point here being that it is possible to both remove provisions from consitutions as well as add them and it is possible for smaller entities to gain freedom. It is not necessarily a one way street.

 

[flecc]

Why should a person living in Cornwall with no experience or knowledge of situation in lets say Scotland have anything what so ever to do with a Scottish decision...and vice versa.

The Cornish person is deciding on the effects of a loss of a part of the UK, not what affects the Scots. If the Scots for example want to be independent, they have to persuade the rest of the UK that it's not only in their own interests but will not disproportionally harm the UK.
.

 

[Danidl]

We,ll have to agree to disagree on that Danid...Could affect entire world ??? Your premise means once you are part of a massive region...effectively you could never leave. Any local disagreements wether independent or not could be negotiated.
Why should a,person living in Cornwall with no experience or knowledge of situation in lets say Scotland have anything what so ever to do with a Scottish decision...and vice versa.

There are always disputes between people and regions, in the better organized societies , they discuss them between peers in parliament's or in courts and generate agreements if possible, compromises ,if necessary and and live with decisions from a court otherwise. In other societies they resort to violence, intimidation and war. .... Guess which side I am on?
The Catalans have recourse to all these paths.
They are both Catalan and Spanish, so it is most probable that they were involved in the creation of their 1978 consitution. .. as they constitute some 25% of the Spanish peoples it would have been unthinkable for them not to have been.

 

[Zlatan]

No, all others affected have to take part in the decision. That was what was wrong about the Scottish independence referendum, the rest of the UK didn't get their vote.
.

Yes, we are both repeating ourselves flecc...just reread my post...

 

[Zlatan]

There are always disputes between people and regions, in the better organized societies , they discuss them between peers in parliament's or in courts and generate agreements if possible, compromises ,if necessary and and live with decisions from a court otherwise. In other societies they resort to violence, intimidation and war. .... Guess which side I am on?
The Catalans have recourse to all these paths.
They are both Catalan and Spanish, so it is most probable that they were involved in the creation of their 1978 consitution. .. as they constitute some 25% of the Spanish peoples it would have been unthinkable for them not to have been.

But those societies negotiating and reaching mutually beneficial agreements do not have to belong to same country. I think your view of it all is very 19th century, where adjoining countries are inevitably in dispute. Why can't any region/ City operate as its own soveriegn entity ??? ( If they so wish) Yes its against Fleccs idea of USE but its the decision of the Catalans wether they want to be seen as Spanish or Catalan. Nobody has the right to hold power over them demanding they are Spanish or form part of USE, doing so is more akin to dictatorship than democracy and flies in face of everything EU purports to stand for. We should all have right of self determination...its called freedom.
Yes, if Yorkshire demanded independence I,d vote against it but Lancashire folk have no right to vote...and if vote said independence then I would support that democratic vote.
Regions wanting self rule should have a list of prerequisites indicating self rule is feasible ( which Catalan plainly has) and then a local vote...end of.

 

[anotherkiwi]

A Belgian reporter for one of the largest French language newspapers was on a show the other day and explained that he had done an interview of the Catalan leaders for the Brussels edition. He said he came away from those interviews thinking that the Catalan political leaders are completely out of their minds. His newspaper is not on the same side of the political fence as the Madrid government, far from it...

In any case big business has voted and several head offices are being transferred out of Catalonia next week, declaration of independence or not. This includes Spain's third largest bank which is moving to Majorca. Another fine example of politicians doing what they want and not what is best for the people they represent. So much for not wanting to pay money into Spanish taxation, soon there won't be any money other than tourist $ and agriculture in the region.