This is precisely the UK/Scottish position albeit with one significant difference. The Scots have to ask the permission of the UK Government to hold a referendum. Did so of course and it was approved, last time. Other than that point I think that Zlatan has it right on all counts.
Fascism returns to Spain
- Thread starter mike killay
- Start date
They already have democracy, they can vote to send members into parliament to persuade and argue for Catalan independence. If they fail, tough, that's what democracy is, the will of the majority. They can't just say we don't like this democracy, so we'll ignore all of the electorate who disagree and just count those who do agree.
You were after all one of those arguing to accept the Brexit vote on the same democratic grounds, marginal though it was.
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No ,its what your version of democracy is. We both know full well Catalan would not get independence in a Spanish ( note Spanish) wide vote.
What right have you, or any one else, to impose your version of democracy on another Country or group. Its for that group or country to determine what their version is....for themselves. Its called self determination for a reason.
Your reason for opposing is selfish. You want to see a USE, it doesn't fit in with that ,so you have vested interest to oppose self determination for groups within EU. Your view is slanted by your vision, which actually opposes democracy. If Catalan wants its own identity with its own governance like we enjoy nobody has a right to stand in their way. If international, national or local law does then the law is wrong and needs changing.
Quoting constitution or laws is simply pointing out how we don't actually enjoy the freedoms we should.
Why should Scotland have to defer to Westminster to ask for permission for a referendum ? That's not right at all.And Spain being able to call a Catalan referendum illegal and then attack citizens in process of voting is as far removed from freedom as slavery was.
Spain is imposing its view of democracy on the Catalans, that is hardly any better than imposing some other form of government on them. Its democracy in name only.
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In the event of the Scots then running such a poll and making a declaration of independence on the basis of it.
I suspect that the Westminster government would have declared the Edinburgh parliament vacated, installed direct rule, charged the Scottish ministers with sedition, declared martial law , transferred the Scottish regiments for duty in Afghanistan, and sent in Welsh troops. ... They have plenty of history in this regard.
Whilst agreeing with much of what you say the reality of this is far more complicated than simply declaring independence because that is what the people want or have voted for. This is very similar to Brexit - there have to be negotiations with regard to what might loosely be called common property and shared interests and that is why Scotland and indeed Catalan need and indeed should be required to defer to a higher authority. In the past the troops would march in and do whatever the stronger party wished - we've moved on some.
Against my better judgement , but here goes. In the case of Jamaica, how many MPs did they have in Westminster? That is what representation means. Their destiny as a colony was determined by outsiders. Would I be wrong in suggesting that any desires of the Jamaican people, prior to independence and it's then local government was passed on to a civil service department in Whitehall where it might or might not be actioned, and where they had no direct control?
In the case of Catalonia, they do have representation in the Madrid parliament. Pro rata with their population as a fraction of Spain.
I have not at any stage implied or insisted that they should not have as much independence as other European states, what I have said on a number of occasions is that there is a process, and in their case, it involves a referendum on the consitution of Spain, which for better or worse, their parents or themselves, voted into existence as recently as 1978.
There is only one form of democracy, and it's very poor:
"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"
Winston S. Churchill, 11th November 1947
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Yes , I think I,ve quoted same phrase in past but its irrelevant. You are suggesting Spain impose their version of democracy on Catalan. I,m saying let the Catalans decide which version they operate under. Yes, its simplistic and difficult to achieve but nevertheless it should be a goal.
Daniel
You didn't answer my point about next year. We all know Jamaica didn't operate true democracy untill post 1962, yes they had representation in their version post 1944 , defering decisions to Governor of Jamaica so yes it wasn't democracy...but for many years it is what Jamaica wanted...until 1962...but its irrelevant. The point is next year Jamaica will have its own identity, self determinatiion and its own government. Catalan will not.
You're persistently missing the point that there is only one form of democracy. That operates as the method of governance in a country, on a smaller scale as the method of governance of a region like a county, and then right down to city, town and parish levels.
Voting is within each for each level of governance.
What you are arguing for is a higher level of governance using only the electorate of a lower level for a referendum. That is not democracy, it's an attempt at dictatorship by a minority.
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Sorry Zlatan but now I too do think you have gone too far. Currently, Catalan is an integral part of Spain, same as Scotland is a part of the UK. By all means the people's of either should be able to question whether or not they wish to remain a part of the higher level. But, they have to abide by the 'rules' that they or their predecessors signed up to. Rules that would have been put in place with good reason for the benefit and security of all concerned. Scotland has always used North Sea oil and fishing as being their reason for dissatisfaction, along with many other things of course. But, it took investment from the whole of the UK to realise the potential and on it goes. There's no way Scotland or Catalan would ever be allowed to declare unilateral independence and that is essentially what you seem to be arguing for? Imagine the result if each and every town in the UK could apply your logic, London would have declared independence years ago? The poor would simply become even poorer.
Well, as Mao Tse Tung observed,
'All political power comes out of the barrel of a gun.'
I think that Madrid is playing a dangerous game here. The so called legality of the situation is of no account if a civil war breaks out.
'All political power comes out of the barrel of a gun.'
I think that Madrid is playing a dangerous game here. The so called legality of the situation is of no account if a civil war breaks out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalitat_de_Catalunya#Current_status
A must read to begin to understand what Catalonia is. The government is a minority government and a majority of Catalans do not with to leave Spain as shown in the 2014 referendum:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014
So we have a pro independence minority government pushing for something the majority of people in Catalonia don't want. It isn't going to work IMHO...
A must read to begin to understand what Catalonia is. The government is a minority government and a majority of Catalans do not with to leave Spain as shown in the 2014 referendum:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014
So we have a pro independence minority government pushing for something the majority of people in Catalonia don't want. It isn't going to work IMHO...
No, I,m saying they should be allowed a referendum to see if majority desire self rule and then work out a way of achieving it with as little ill effect to all concerned as possible . ( assuming they did vote yes)
Suggesting the whole of Spain should be involved to decide wether Catalans want independence is actually quite ridiculous. Could work other way, rest of Spain could vote to rid themselves of Catalan, if they deemed it..
How on earth could a Spanish referendum decide if Catalans want their own independent government. A second referendum for the whole of Spain could be called to see if Spain wants to grant it...but we know the answer to that...No they don't. Spain wants the revenue Catalan produces...( which could be negotiated about)
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All in your opinion...
Answer this Flecc when Jamaica voted to request independence should UK voters also been consulted prior to its granting ? Ofcourse not. You are then making a value judgement on Catalans present situation, implying they do not have a right to self determination when Jamaica did because of prior arrangements. Catalan has just as much right to self determination as anyone, without having to consult folk outside Catalan.
I am not missing any point. You are assuming a better understanding of democracy and then a right to impose it on others.Flecc, you are missing the point. It is quite ridiculous to consult the whole of Spain to see if Catalans desire an independent government. The first question, referendum must be to ask " do you want self determination" And then proceed from there by negotiations..
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Of course not, they are two countries, Jamaica was never in the UK.
Catalonia is part of the one country of Spain.
I really hope that at last you realise how you are confusing two entirely different issues.
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Read
The British people were not directly consulted, its not your way. the British parliament was, which is how your democracy works , was consulted.
Had you a written constitution which stipulated that Jamaica was an integral part of the UK then parliament would have needed to consult its electorate. Again I refer you to the substance of the case taken to the law lords about triggering brexit. That judgement stated that the executive could not infringe on the rights of UK subjects whereas the government's case was that the executive could in foreign policy matters using the " queens prerogative. " The executive lost.
Where I can finally agree with you is that different states , while all claiming democratic status do use different models. Age, property, social status, sex, mental health, being a felon etc etc can affect ones right to vote.
Read Your first sentence again... they the Jamaicans requested the right from the then sovereign authority... this is what flecc and I have been saying....
The British people were not directly consulted, its not your way. the British parliament was, which is how your democracy works , was consulted.
Had you a written constitution which stipulated that Jamaica was an integral part of the UK then parliament would have needed to consult its electorate. Again I refer you to the substance of the case taken to the law lords about triggering brexit. That judgement stated that the executive could not infringe on the rights of UK subjects whereas the government's case was that the executive could in foreign policy matters using the " queens prerogative. " The executive lost.
Where I can finally agree with you is that different states , while all claiming democratic status do use different models. Age, property, social status, sex, mental health, being a felon etc etc can affect ones right to vote.
But you are both missing the point..Catalan is only part of Spain because you see it as such. The Catalans ( well apparently some of them) do not see it that way, which is exactly the point of a Catalan referendum. To find out the %age of people in Caralan who see their country as not part of Spain but a completely different country with its own unique identity. Nobody has any right to stop that process of actually finding out and then of negotiating a way of achieving it if so desired.
Its not ours, the EU,s, Spain:s or anybody else decision to say wether Catalan is or is not part of Spain. That is solely for Catalans to decide.
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That's just being silly, Catalonia is a de facto part of Spain, regardless of my views. They accepted that in 1978 and ever since have accepted that daily by their co-operation. For example obeying Spanish laws, paying Spanish national taxes, using Spanish passports, travelling in and out of other Spanish regions freely, travelling in and out of other EU countries using the Spanish EU membership benefits, using the euro as adopted by the Spanish national government, all without protesting that these are an imposition.
No-one else who matters agrees with your stance. Already other countries are saying that they will not recognise Catalonia as a country, the UK certainly won't, nor will any EU member, nor will the UN. So any bid for independence has failed even before it has started.
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This is interesting and it now seems obvious, to me, that we have a situation where passion meets the cold hard light of day. Wars have been fought over less and the reality is that is will only ever be resolved by a face to face meeting. Be that in a pub or at some higher level is a mute point. I totally see where you, Zlatan are coming from but reality is not on your side, you need to understand the others point of view and dare I say accept that the 'legal' right is not on your side. Apart from that it would seem that the majority of people want to stay in Spain anyway.
Having just watched the Channel 4 News (not Fake News, I hope) I worry for Spain and just hope that the desire for separatism, by what seems to be a minority, does not totally blank common-sense.
Nicola Sturgeon was far from convincing, no opinion there that's for sure.
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