Fascism returns to Spain
- Thread starter mike killay
- Start date
Tom,
I do support the right of a people to self determination, and the EU response to the referendum falls far short of what I would like to see.
The obvious way forward is for Madrid to acknowledge that there is a demand for independence and to organise a proper referendum under EU supervision to determine the real will of the Catalonian people.
And to accept the result.[/QUOTE]
Mike , you are not thinking this through. From my readings in Wilki etc, Spain already is very devolved with some 50 autonomous regions, and with extensive local powers and local democracy. It is likely that some of the other regions would like perhaps more autonomy also. But they have a consitution. All the other regions and all the other people's in Spain have a democratic right to be consulted . The way that is done is by a referendum. Despite all the big words about consulting the people what the Catalan officials have done and threaten to do is deeply undemocratic. It would be defranchising all the other regions.
The request by the Catalan officials to have EU engagement is tantamount to equating themselves as a sovereign power equivalent to Spain. It is a ploy and if the EU were foolish enough to seek to mediate out of some desire to stop violence, then they would de facto have destroyed Spain. and a civil war would ensue.
Spain has a court system, it has a constitutional court and it has the ability to change its consitution by referenda of all the citizens.
Last edited:
Tom,
I do support the right of a people to self determination, and the EU response to the referendum falls far short of what I would like to see.
The obvious way forward is for Madrid to acknowledge that there is a demand for independence and to organise a proper referendum under EU supervision to determine the real will of the Catalonian people.
And to accept the result.[/QUOTE]
That would mean EU doing something useful which by definition is beyond their remit.
Not sure what happened with this post...quote is mixed up ??!
Mike , you are not thinking this through. From my readings in Wilki etc, Spain already is very devolved with some 50 autonomous regions, and with extensive local powers and local democracy. It is likely that some of the other regions would like perhaps more autonomy also. But they have a consitution. All the other regions and all the other people's in Spain have a democratic right to be consulted . The way that is done is by a referendum. Despite all the big words about consulting the people what the Catalan officials have done and threaten to do is deeply undemocratic. It would be defranchising all the other regions.
The request by the Catalan officials to have EU engagement is tantamount to equating themselves as a sovereign power equivalent to Spain. It is a ploy and if the EU were foolish enough to seek to mediate out of some desire to stop violence, then they would de facto have destroyed Spain. and a civil war would ensue.
Spain has a court system, it has a constitutional court and it has the ability to change its consitution by referenda of all the citizens.[/QUOTE]
Well, as I said above, we didn't see the need for all of the UK to be involved in either the Irish vote in the 1920s or the recent Scottish vote.
But of course, neither Ireland or Scotland were a vital part of the UK economy, unlike Catalunya is to the Spanish economy.
The request by the Catalan officials to have EU engagement is tantamount to equating themselves as a sovereign power equivalent to Spain. It is a ploy and if the EU were foolish enough to seek to mediate out of some desire to stop violence, then they would de facto have destroyed Spain. and a civil war would ensue.
Spain has a court system, it has a constitutional court and it has the ability to change its consitution by referenda of all the citizens.[/QUOTE]
Well, as I said above, we didn't see the need for all of the UK to be involved in either the Irish vote in the 1920s or the recent Scottish vote.
But of course, neither Ireland or Scotland were a vital part of the UK economy, unlike Catalunya is to the Spanish economy.
As I recall, certainly in the case of Scotland, the SNP Government had to get the agreement / permission of the UK Government to hold a Referendum? I really don't think that the economic factors had any part in the decision to hold the referendum - other than the obvious politicking that went on subsequently, from both sides.
Well, as I said above, we didn't see the need for all of the UK to be involved in either the Irish vote in the 1920s or the recent Scottish vote.
But of course, neither Ireland or Scotland were a vital part of the UK economy, unlike Catalunya is to the Spanish economy.[/QUOTE]
The distinction was / is that all of the Uk , in the form of the British parliament, had already voted on an Irish home rule bill some 5 years previously and then renaged. Under British law there is no requirement to consult the people, referenda are just opinion polls, parliament is supreme. Other countries have written consitutions, which limits the power of parliament and courts which hold parliament's in check. There is no such check and balance in the UK. If you recall the court appeals regarding Brexit were whether the uk government ie the ministers were entitled to disregard parliament. The law lords reaffirmed the superemcy of parliament.
The economic strengths of Scotland, Ireland or even Catalonia are just red herrings, and does not affect the principles involved.
If you refer back to my earlier post, it was that SF\IRA used the fact that there had not been an all Ireland poll since 1919, and they were using that as their claim to legitimacy. It was part of their mythology. That argument was finally destroyed by the peoples of Ireland following the good Friday Agreement voting. What you may not realise or remember that separately, the people in the ROI had a referendum on our Constitution and removed a number of articles, which many in the North would have found repugnant and some a comfort.
What cannot be denied is that in 1978 the peoples of Catalonia agreed 90% to a consitution which stated they were a part of an entity of Spain and the other regions of Spain agreed likewise. There is no unilateral get out clause. So it remains unconstitutional , I hate to use the term, but flecc is correct, but seeking to break up a union in this fashion is treason.
When you use the word Madrid , are you referring to the central government , where it would be possible to negotiate, or the consiitutional court, also located there and which interprets the consitution, and to which arguements may be made, but cannot negotiate.
are you saying that the Catalans can never have their independence through any other means than if the rest of Spain agrees? That will lead to armed militants and bloodshed. And how about article 3 of the first protocol?
Tell me more, what is Article 3... Not a lawyer and this seems sort of clear...
Disqualification due to prior conduct or affiliations
Herri Batasuna and Batasuna v. Spain, Etxeberria and Others v. Spain, and
Henrritarren Zerrenda v. Spain
30 June 2009
On 27 June 2002 the Spanish Parliament enacted an organic law1 on political parties. The main innovations concerned the organisation, functioning, dissolution and suspension by the courts of political parties. Under that Law, Herri Batasuna and Batasuna2 were declared illegal and dissolved. Following that dissolution, the candidatures of various electoral groupings for local elections were revoked on the ground that the candidates were pursuing the activities of the dissolved parties.
The Court held in particular that there had been no violation of Article 11 (freedom of assembly and association) in the case of Herri Batasuna and Batasuna: the dissolution had been “necessary in a democratic society, notably in the interest of public safety, for the prevention of disorder and the protection of the rights and freedoms of others”.
In the case of Etxeberria and Others, the Court held that there had been no violation of Article 3 of Protocol No. 1: It observed that the Spanish courts had sufficiently proved that the illegal groupings had aimed to pursue the activities of Batasuna and Herri Batasuna, which had previously been dissolved on account of their support for violence and the activities of the terrorist organisation ETA. Noting further that the political context in Spain, that is the presence of separatist political parties within the governmental bodies of certain autonomous communities, particularly in the Basque Country, proved that there had been no intention of prohibiting any expression of separatist ideas, the Court considered that its case-law, according to which the expression of separatist points of view did not in itself involve a threat against the territorial integrity of the State and national security, had been complied with. The free expression of the opinion of the people had not therefore been infringed. The Court reached the same conclusions in the case of Herritarren Zerrenda.
Define independence. From what I have read, and I will readily admit I do not know Spain, it would appear that they have a lot of local independence and autonomy for local government, police, school, justice, taxes .
It is exactly the rise of militants and bloodshed, that the judicial constitutional process is intended to stop. What will you expect the results of a breakaway region to be? The path the Catalans are currently taking will inevitably lead to bloodshed. Do you expect their fellow Spanish citizens in Galicia next door to be pleased and celebrate. Would you want that for Brittany splitting from Normandy and border posts going up in Nantes and Valognes?
So yes I am saying that there is a two stage process, ... Change the consitution of Spain and then engage with their neighbours and fellow citizens of the Spanish republic\ monarchy, and do it consitutionally ! There is a name for this and it's called democracy.
I consider that the central government in Madrid was correct but highly politically inept in the actions they took last week. They responded in a petty fashion to what was designed as provocation .
Hot off the press! The Spanish government has utilised the constitutional court to pre-empt any move by the Catalans to declare independence:
world-europe-41514398
Tom
world-europe-41514398
Tom
I would use Scotland's Indyref as an example, if the result were a 'yes'.
Scotland's local government will start negotiating a future relationship with the UK government. Nothing is going to happen in an instant.
I would have hoped that the EU would discuss the matter in the EP and may sponsor a properly organize referendum, not one with federal police and local police facing each other with batons at the ready.
At the end of the day, if the EU evolves into a superstate, all these independence referenda won't be necessary.
So true but it is a very big IF. It's hard to see how any of these cries for independence can possibly be met by such countries remaining in the EU. They will be so small as to be totally insignificant even though in this particular case probably a net contributor.
Catalonia's population is 7.5 millions.
Thirteen EU member countries, that's almost half the member countries, have smaller populations, mostly very much smaller and sometimes in the thousands rather than millions.
Information link
.
I don't disagree with that information at all but a country in the EU with a population of 50M plus will always have the greater influence. Independence is usually brought about through desire to make their own decisions / dissatisfaction with the current situation? Hard to see how joining an even larger group would solve that?
I suppose it's the proximity and immediacy of influence, the national government nearby being felt more than a distant body like the EU.
We have a parallel with Catalonia in this respect, with Scotland possibly seeking independence from the UK while wanting to be EU members.
Meanwhile the UK wants out of the EU.
All we need now is for the EU to want to leave the United Nations!
.
I thought the EU is only an observer, not a member of the UN.
Maybe one day, the EU would get a permanent seat at the security council on behalf of its 27 members.
I'm not sure of the details of the EU status, but they appear to be subject to UN rules.
Just as we've had to incorporate EU law into our regulations, so the EU incorporates UN regulations into EU legislation.
For just one example, the new EU L1e-B type approval regulations for mopeds fully incorporate UNC78 braking power requirements, though there is an easing of UNC78 requirements for the L1e-A 25 kph class.
.