Fascism returns to Spain

[Danidl]

But those societies negotiating and reaching mutually beneficial agreements do not have to belong to same country. I think your view of it all is very 19th century, where adjoining countries are inevitably in dispute. Why can't any region/ City operate as its own soveriegn entity ??? ( If they so wish) Yes its against Fleccs idea of USE but its the decision of the Catalans wether they want to be seen as Spanish or Catalan. Nobody has the right to hold power over them demanding they are Spanish or form part of USE, doing so is more akin to dictatorship than democracy and flies in face of everything EU purports to stand for. We should all have right of self determination...its called freedom.
Yes, if Yorkshire demanded independence I,d vote against it but Lancashire folk have no right to vote...and if vote said independence then I would support that democratic vote.
Regions wanting self rule should have a list of prerequisites indicating self rule is feasible ( which Catalan plainly has) and then a local vote...end of.

I want my house to be an independent republic, with full diplomatic relations and a seat on the in general assembly of the UN. I have democratically voted by myself, in a secret ballot, which I have held without informing my family and neighbours. , As a sovereign state I need pay no taxes to the county council or anyone else.... That is the "reducto as adsurdum " logical consequence of your stance....

. I have been a witness to intimidation, I see how it works. Do you think that those Catalans who see themselves as both Spanish and Catalan voted last week?., Particularly when the legitimate authority had told them it was illegal. ?. Moreover their neighbours in Aragon, have a vested interest, etc etc .

Perhaps in a future time, with a unified European state, the provinces could really negotiate their boundaries with their neighbours and increase or decrease their representation on local councils , just as political constituencies grow and shrink with population movement.

 

[Zlatan]

I want my house to be an independent republic, with full diplomatic relations and a seat on the in general assembly of the UN. I have democratically voted by myself, in a secret ballot, which I have held without informing my family and neighbours. , As a sovereign state I need pay no taxes to the county council or anyone else.... That is the "reducto as adsurdum " logical consequence of your stance....

. I have been a witness to intimidation, I see how it works. Do you think that those Catalans who see themselves as both Spanish and Catalan voted last week?., Particularly when the legitimate authority had told them it was illegal. ?. Moreover their neighbours in Aragon, have a vested interest, etc etc .

Perhaps in a future time, with a unified European state, the provinces could really negotiate their boundaries with their neighbours and increase or decrease their representation on local councils , just as political constituencies grow and shrink with population movement.

If your house fills prerequisites,ie funding, representation,( voting)
taxation, infrastructure,education, health care, social care etc etc why should anybody be able to stop you ??Doesn't seem terribly enlightened for you Danidl...to assume its fine for an individual to be controlled by another literally from another country. Taking the concept to a ridiculous extent does not stop the concept being a working one..Look at Monaco, Vatican even Andorra to an extent..

 

[Woosh]

I want my house to be an independent republic, with full diplomatic relations and a seat on the in general assembly of the UN. I have democratically voted by myself, in a secret ballot, which I have held without informing my family and neighbours. , As a sovereign state I need pay no taxes to the county council or anyone else.... That is the "reducto as adsurdum " logical consequence of your stance....

your house's vote may be insignificant to become an independent republic, but 2,000,000 catalan votes are not so insignificant in normal circumstance leave alone under federal police repression.
The Spanish government insists on banning any expression of the catalan independent movement, that can't be sustainable on the long run.

 

[flecc]

The Spanish government insists on banning any expression of the catalan independent movement

And I hope they continue to. Catalonia is an important part of Spain, economically, culturally and geographically. As such I would support a referendum on Catalan independence in which all of Spain voted,

But Catalan trying to vote alone is UDI, not only wrong but illegal, internationally as well as nationally. When leader Ian Smith declared Rhodesia independent without UK agreement, not only Britain declared that Unilateral Declaration of Independence illegal, the United Nations did too, as did the member countries by their support for the sanctions imposed.

So the accepted worldwide view is that such breaking away has to be mutual between the affected parties. The size of a unilateral vote isn't relevant, when 90% of the electorate voted for Crimea to break away from the Ukraine and then carried that out, almost all the world accepted that was illegal, supporting sanctions against Russia who had received the Crimea into their domain.
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[tommie]

when 90% of the electorate voted for Crimea to break away from the Ukraine and then carried that out, almost all the world accepted that was illegal.

flecc, surely you`re not saying this was a legal and democratic vote?

 

[Woosh]

But Catalan trying to vote alone is UDI, not only wrong but illegal,

The Spanish government is entitled to declare the result of the vote null and void using their constitutional law.
I have no problem with that.
what is wrong is to use the federal police to stop people voting.
This is in direct contravention of the European Convention on HR.

 

[Danidl]

If your house fills prerequisites,ie funding, representation,( voting)
taxation, infrastructure,education, health care, social care etc etc why should anybody be able to stop you ??Doesn't seem terribly enlightened for you Danidl...to assume its fine for an individual to be controlled by another literally from another country. Taking the concept to a ridiculous extent does not stop the concept being a working one..Look at Monaco, Vatican even Andorra to an extent..

And people have called me idealistic???? .. I think it was you. Those statelets, and I am surprised you did not include Luxembourg, to which you refer are the hangover from those bastides which existed in the middle ages, and just were not important enough to bother bringing into central control. Now they are quaint oddities
Using the words "controlled from another country" is seeking to put words into my mouth, none of which I implied. Control from another country is what colonial rule is all about. Shared sovereignty is not colonialism. Shared sovereignty is what the Spanish citizens enjoy in each of their autonomous regions and what the 26 nations enjoy in the EU.

 

[Danidl]

The Spanish government is entitled to declare the result of the vote null and void using their constitutional law.
I have no problem with that.
what is wrong is to use the federal police to stop people voting.
This is in direct contravention of the European Convention on HR.

The Spanish government is entitled to declare the result of the vote null and void using their constitutional law.
I have no problem with that.
what is wrong is to use the federal police to stop people voting.
This is in direct contravention of the European Convention on HR.

. It was singularly inept. Whether it was in contravention of long standing principles , I'm not so sure. It was intended to provoke, and it worked to a large extent.

 

[Woosh]

. It was intended to provoke, and it worked to a large extent.

I disagree that the vote is a provocation.
it is certainly not honourable of the ruling party to use the federal police against a vote organized by a regional government.

 

[flecc]

flecc, surely you`re not saying this was a legal and democratic vote?

Of course not, I thought it was clear that I cited it as an example of illegality. However the vote itself was real, there was no fixing. The Crimea had a huge Russian population who in a full turnout would have won anyway, and since the Ukrainians largely boycotted the referendum, they lost anyway by default.
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[Zlatan]

And people have called me idealistic???? .. I think it was you. Those statelets, and I am surprised you did not include Luxembourg, to which you refer are the hangover from those bastides which existed in the middle ages, and just were not important enough to bother bringing into central control. Now they are quaint oddities
Using the words "controlled from another country" is seeking to put words into my mouth, none of which I implied. Control from another country is what colonial rule is all about. Shared sovereignty is not colonialism. Shared sovereignty is what the Spanish citizens enjoy in each of their autonomous regions and what the 26 nations enjoy in the EU.

Its only shared when all parties wish to share.
Wether a country arrives at independence post imperialism , colonisation or shared constitution is irrelevant. Its independence, a countries' past should have nothing to do with its desires for the future. If all countries around world had had same criteria as you put forward I wonder how many would still be years from self rule.
What you are suggesting Danidl is that if Catalonia was currently under French/ German/ British colonial rule its claims for independence would be legitimate and an internal vote adequate. Why the difference? Catalan would now be in a better position, from your stand point, had it currently been under British imperial rule. Its actually irrelevant to Catalan.
They desire , or the vote tends to suggest they desire, self rule, who and what you cut the strings from makes no difference.

 

[flecc]

what is wrong is to use the federal police to stop people voting.
This is in direct contravention of the European Convention on HR.

As an illegal referendum, they were entitled to use the forces of civil order to prevent that illegal function. The methods used were wrong however, there were better and more civilised ways, such as arresting and detaining the organisers long before.
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[Woosh]

As an illegal referendum, they were entitled to use the forces of civil order to prevent that illegal function. The methods used were wrong however, there were better and more civilised ways, such as arresting and detaining the organisers long before.
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I would not have any problem with the federal government using the police to arrest the organizers, which is no doubt within their rights, but even that does not make that decision right.
Look at how MT used the police against strikers. The Madrid decision to use the police against innocent citizens cannot be justified. Let's just wait a little longer to see if the Madid government manages to get a conviction against the organisers.

 

[Danidl]

Its only shared when all parties wish to share.
Wether a country arrives at independence post imperialism , colonisation or shared constitution is irrelevant. Its independence, a countries' past should have nothing to do with its desires for the future. If all countries around world had had same criteria as you put forward I wonder how many would still be years from self rule.
What you are suggesting Danidl is that if Catalonia was currently under French/ German/ British colonial rule its claims for independence would be legitimate and an internal vote adequate. Why the difference? Catalan would now be in a better position, from your stand point, had it currently been under British imperial rule. Its actually irrelevant to Catalan.
They desire , or the vote tends to suggest they desire, self rule, who and what you cut the strings from makes no difference.

Zatlan you are only arguing for the sake of it. The distinction between having a representative voice , which Catalans and other Spanish groups have, and being dictated to by a foreign government as would be the case with a colony is lost on you. , So I give up.

 

[Danidl]

I disagree that the vote is a provocation.
it is certainly not honourable of the ruling party to use the federal police against a vote organized by a regional government.

Woosch, the highest court in the land had ruled it illegal, not the Madrid government. There is a distinction to be made , in a democracy between the parliament, the executive .. the government and the courts. The executive has the power and duty to run things including the police, and the civil servants, the parliament sets up the laws and the courts ensure that all including the citizens, and the government and the officers of state operate in conformance. I think that the executive was ill advised to come heavy on the citizens even if the vote were illegal, as others have said there were other ways.

 

[Woosh]

Woosch, the highest court in the land had ruled it illegal, not the Madrid government. There is a distinction to be made , in a democracy between the parliament, the executive .. the government and the courts. The executive has the power and duty to run things including the police, and the civil servants, the parliament sets up the laws and the courts ensure that all including the citizens, and the government and the officers of state operate in conformance. I think that the executive was ill advised to come heavy on the citizens even if the vote were illegal, as others have said there were other ways.

it seems the Madrid government is incapable of taking the referendum organisers to Court, so beating the voters up makes no sense at all.
BTW, why did you see the need to teach me the rudiments of separation of powers? Am I as thick as you think brexiters are?

 

[Zlatan]

Zatlan you are only arguing for the sake of it. The distinction between having a representative voice , which Catalans and other Spanish groups have, and being dictated to by a foreign government as would be the case with a colony is lost on you. , So I give up.

By all means give up Danidl but as usual you assume others are misinformed or missing point when actually its you doing so.
First of all your assumption colonies did not have representation is factually wrong.( in British ones) Jamaica had universal suffrage from 1944 and one of main reasons (not the only one accepted) Independence didn't follow until 1962 was that many locals simply didn't want it. Speak with older Jamaicans ( not just white either) and many will say place was better with British Sovereignty.

In a way its irrelevant anyway since its you judging the peoople in Catalan area . You are saying " you have representation, its enough" You have no right to put your politics on others. If they wish for independence its their freedom of choice. Not your, not mine, nobodies except the Catalans themselves.
Compare Jamaica and Catalonia next year. Who will have greater self determination ? Which will have their own omnipotent Government ? Which will have singular identity ? Jamaica in each case.. Unless Spain grants Catalan freedom...which really shouldn't be a concept these days...Spain being in a position to grant freedom to another country is an anachronism.

 

[oldtom]

Spain's dilemma highlights the difficulties posed by the definition of democracy and how to deal with malcontents.

For outsiders to make a rational determination about which side is right and display empathy is impossible yet that is exactly what thousands of non-Spanish people did in the 1930s when Spain went to war with itself. That war created resentment which remains in certain areas to this day and saw communities and even families split. Various alliances were formed, some creating strange bedfellows united in a common cause.

I don't know the answer to Spain's problem today but clearly, unless there is some dialogue between the Madrid government and the regional authority with its limited powers in Catalonia, the matter will not simply go away but will remain as a festering sore on the Spanish body, repeatedly breaking out, spilling poison. The actions of the Madrid government will not be forgotten in Catalonia and many will have noted the resort to the repressive Francoist tactics employed for 40 years. That can never be the way forward in Spain or anywhere else.

Among the comments I have come across, this observation from Desmond Tutu seems particularly relevant. It's just a pity Mr Tutu couldn't provide an answer.



Tom

 

[flecc]

In a way its irrelevant anyway since its you judging the peoople in Catalan area . You are saying " you have representation, its enough" You have no right to put your politics on others. If they wish for independence its their freedom of choice. Not your, not mine, nobodies except the Catalans themselves.

No, no, no. You cannot say it's correct for Catalans to enjoy democracy while denying it to the rest of Spain. Catalonia is, as I've already observed, a very important component of Spain and its loss will materially affect all other Spaniards. It follows that democratically all affected parties should be able to vote on the issue.
.

 

[Zlatan]

No, no, no. You cannot say it's correct for Catalans to enjoy democracy while denying it to the rest of Spain. Catalonia is, as I've already observed, a very important component of Spain and its loss will materially affect all other Spaniards. It follows that democratically all affected parties should be able to vote on the issue.
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No,no,no..Its the decision of the Catalans...nobody else's.
Like I said earlier we,ll just have to agree to disagree.
Why should you or I have a say in what Scots wish to do. None of my business...or yours..I wouldn't want Scots to gain independence but its their decision. If it damages rest of country that's our hard luck.

And Catalans are not denying democracy for rest of Spain, they are asking of it for themselves.