Fascism returns to Spain

[Danidl]

But you are both missing the point..Catalan is only part of Spain because you see it as such. The Catalans ( well apparently some of them) do not see it that way, which is exactly the point of a Catalan referendum. To find out the %age of people in Caralan who see their country as not part of Spain but a completely different country with its own unique identity. Nobody has any right to stop that process of actually finding out and then of negotiating a way of achieving it if so desired.
Its not ours, the EU,s, Spain:s or anybody else decision to say wether Catalan is or is not part of Spain. That is solely for Catalans to decide.

We say it is part of Spain because it is. The Spanish state says it is, the UN agrees it is, the Catalan accept it is , the people of Catalonia said in 1978 that it was some of their children , may wish it not to be so now. Immigrants who migrated there since 1978 went there knowing it was part of Spain.
Gibraltar is physically part of Spain, the Spanish peoples wish it were so politically, but by a treaty signed long ago it remains British

 

[Danidl]

Well, as Mao Tse Tung observed,
'All political power comes out of the barrel of a gun.'
I think that Madrid is playing a dangerous game here. The so called legality of the situation is of no account if a civil war breaks out.

The legality might not prevent a civil war starting , but is the only method, bar ethnic cleansing or unconditional surrender of ending one.
Madrid is playing a dangerous game, yes, but so too is the Catalan parliament. Madrid may have been clumsy!!! in handling this unrest to date, but they have right on their side. The Catalan parliament is on the wrong side of international law, they either know this and are being provocative, or their innocence is touching and they shouldn't be let out alone.

 

[Zlatan]

This is interesting and it now seems obvious, to me, that we have a situation where passion meets the cold hard light of day. Wars have been fought over less and the reality is that is will only ever be resolved by a face to face meeting. Be that in a pub or at some higher level is a mute point. I totally see where you, Zlatan are coming from but reality is not on your side, you need to understand the others point of view and dare I say accept that the 'legal' right is not on your side. Apart from that it would seem that the majority of people want to stay in Spain anyway.

Having just watched the Channel 4 News (not Fake News, I hope) I worry for Spain and just hope that the desire for separatism, by what seems to be a minority, does not totally blank common-sense.

Nicola Sturgeon was far from convincing, no opinion there that's for sure.

All fair points Peterl..having law on your side does not always equate to having right...

Spain had the law on its side when GC fired rubber bullets into crowds, it had the law on its side when it dragged people out of voting booths, yet the Catalans didn't for trying to express a common goal peacefully.??? Who,s laws are they ? The Catalan's or Spanish'.

 

[Danidl]

All fair points Peterl..having law on your side does not always equate to having right...

Spain had the law on its side when GC fired rubber bullets into crowds, it had the law on its side when it dragged people out of voting booths, yet the Catalans didn't for trying to express a common goal peacefully.??? Who,s laws are they ? The Catalan's or Spanish'.

Which part of Catalonia is Spanish will you refuse to accept. You may wish it were otherwise, I don't care, but it is a fact. It was not so once, it may not be so in some future , but at present it is.

Why are you assuming that it was peaceful? I understand how intimidation works, do you? Why did 60% of the electorate boycott it?
Civil authorities in almost every state have a variety of non fatal weapons for crowd control. There are usually a lot less police in a crowd control situation than crowd .. incidentally my understanding is that they were plastic baton rounds, not rubber bullets.. not mere semantics.... We had people in Ireland killed by rubber bullets
I believe that almost every commentator, including those in positions of authority in Madrid, agreed that the police reaction was heavy handed.

 

[Zlatan]

Which part of Catalonia is Spanish will you refuse to accept. You may wish it were otherwise, I don't care, but it is a fact. It was not so once, it may not be so in some future , but at present it is.

Why are you assuming that it was peaceful? I understand how intimidation works, do you? Why did 60% of the electorate boycott it?
Civil authorities in almost every state have a variety of non fatal weapons for crowd control. There are usually a lot less police in a crowd control situation than crowd .. incidentally my understanding is that they were plastic baton rounds, not rubber bullets.. not mere semantics.... We had people in Ireland killed by rubber bullets
I believe that almost every commentator, including those in positions of authority in Madrid, agreed that the police reaction was heavy handed.

Its not my decision to make. Personally could not care less wether Catalonia is in Spain or not...Its the choice of the Catalans. Just as its the choice of the Scottish to be in UK or not...and the Irish...and Welsh.
Why are you so adamant to remove the choice from people having control of their own identity ?
Over the last century or so hundreds of new countries have established independence from all types of backgrounds. I do not understand your reluctance for others to do likewise.
What possible harm is there in allowing Catalan ( or Wales / Scotland /NI) to be trully independent if they chose to by fair democratic process.. The harm seems to arise preventing people having sovereignty.
I,m not suggesting independence is thrust upon them because I happen to see Catalonia as distinct from Spain, I am merely saying the Catalans have the freedom to
A) Find out exactly what region feels about independence, hence a referendum.

B) To be allowed that referendum without interference.

C) To be able to negotiate towards independence if it was so desired.


I can not see at all what is so contentious about that..you are the one looking for argument.

Flecc
People on Gibraltar want to remain part of UK. They voted on doing so, you and I were not consulted.
Seems some Catalans ( an unknown number?) do not want to be part of Spain. If that number is enough ( ie a large enough majority) then they should be allowed to negotiate to that end.
I,m not commenting on this view any more. We will never agree.

Spain should have encouraged the referendum , all this would have been avoided. Chances are Catalans would have voted to stay.

 

[flecc]

I am merely saying the Catalans have the freedom to

C) To be able to negotiate towards independence if it was so desired.

And I not only agree, I've said as much above. So once again, they don't need A or B, they can already persuade and negotiate for independence in the democratic Spanish parliament.

If that doesn't succeed, that's the price of democracy which like all of us, we have to accept. The only alternative then is to turn to violence like ETA, IRA, PKD, LRA etc., since there is no other democracy possible as I've explained.
.

 

[Zlatan]

And I not only agree, I've said as much above. So once again, they don't need A or B, they can already persuade and negotiate for independence in the democratic Spanish parliament.

If that doesn't succeed, that's the price of democracy which like all of us, we have to accept. The only alternative then is to turn to violence like ETA, IRA, PKD, LRA etc., since there is no other democracy possible as I've explained.
.

Yes, I see that point flecc. It does look to me as though the Spanish government are pushing Catalans that way rather than negotiating tho.
The Catalans should not have called their referendum binding. It should have been an exploratory referendum to gauge wether sovereignty was wanted...Making the referendum binding was the ilegal part. Agreed. Holding a referendum to see if folk even want to pursue that avenue is a completely different animal.

 

[Zlatan]

Cant post links but this article is worth reading.


This article was originally published on 22 October 2014, weeks before Catalonia held their first vote for independence, where 80.8% of voters said they wanted Catalonia to be an independent state.

The history of Catalonia

Catalonia was an independent region of the Iberian Peninsula – modern day Spain and Portugal – with its own language, laws and customs.

In 1150, the marriage of Petronilia, Queen of Aragon and Ramon Berenguer IV, Count of Barcelona formed a dynasty leaving their son to inherit all territories concerning the region of Aragon and Catalonia.

This lasted until the reign of King Philip V. The War of the Spanish Succession ended with the defeat of Valencia in 1707, of Catalonia in 1714, and finally with the last of the islands in 1715 – resulting in the birth of modern-day Spain.

Subsequent kings tried to impose the Spanish language and laws on the region, but they abandoned their attempts in 1931 and restored the Generalitat (the national Catalan government).

General Francisco Franco, however, set out to destroy Catalan separatism and with his victory at the Battle of Ebro in 1938 he took control of the region, killing 3,500 people and forcing many more into exile."

Rest of article can be found under
Catalan Independence in google. ( Think it was a,Telegraph piece)

 

[Danidl]

Yes, I see that point flecc. It does look to me as though the Spanish government are pushing Catalans that way rather than negotiating tho.
The Catalans should not have called their referendum binding. It should have been an exploratory referendum to gauge wether sovereignty was wanted...Making the referendum binding was the ilegal part. Agreed. Holding a referendum to see if folk even want to pursue that avenue is a completely different animal.

Yes I can agree this ... We are getting to be on the same page. Calling it a referendum was also a mistake.

 

[anotherkiwi]

When they had a referendum to decide if there should be a referendum only 41% (highest % given by the Catalan government others sa as low as 30%) of the population thought it was worth while participating. Compare that to the Scottish vote...

Catalonia existed as a medieval state until the 18th century then disappeared for 2 centuries only to reappear as a socialist province in the 3rd decade of the 20th century until Franco shot or chased all the socialists and communists out of Spain. It reappears again today as a socialist province which doesn't agree with the politics of the governing PP, Franco's old party renamed for modern times. Do you see a pattern here?

 

[Zlatan]

When they had a referendum to decide if there should be a referendum only 41% (highest % given by the Catalan government others sa as low as 30%) of the population thought it was worth while participating. Compare that to the Scottish vote...

Catalonia existed as a medieval state until the 18th century then disappeared for 2 centuries only to reappear as a socialist province in the 3rd decade of the 20th century until Franco shot or chased all the socialists and communists out of Spain. It reappears again today as a socialist province which doesn't agree with the politics of the governing PP, Franco's old party renamed for modern times. Do you see a pattern here?

There does seem lots of conflicting information around referendums etc in Catalonia.
Article mentioned yesterday talks of 80% wishing to leave in 2014...Catalans asked for independence in 1932.

 

[PeterL]

There does seem lots of conflicting information around referendums etc in Catalonia.
Article mentioned yesterday talks of 80% wishing to leave in 2014...Catalans asked for independence in 1932.

You can make such things say what you want:

For every 100 people, 41 of them voted and of those 81% voted Yes.

That means you could say 33 people (81%) voted for Independence, or

33% voted for Independence – 67% wanted to remain a part of Spain

 

[flecc]

I wish for independence every time I find one of our laws inconvenient.

That's about all such a wish means, we don't like the status quo.
.

 

[PeterL]

I wish for independence every time I find one of our laws inconvenient.

That's about all such a wish means, we don't like the status quo.
.

And therein the reason why the ability to change such things should not be on a whim and without thought. That said, recent politics, starting in Scotland with the Yes vote do show that it is possible to galvanise a section of the population and bring change much closer.

Only to awaken the sleeping majority in most cases...

 

[Zlatan]

I wish for independence every time I find one of our laws inconvenient.

That's about all such a wish means, we don't like the status quo.
.

No Flecc, some people are much more motivated and for very personal reasons.
This might be OT but story worth telling.
When we lived in France we had a small allotment. Over the ten years we were there we got to know the old chap looking after the adjacent plot. Communication was difficult as our French was only slightly worse than his. He spoke Catalan, good Spanish and a little French. He helped us decide what we could and couldn't grow and cared for land in our absence. As a boy he,d lived the other side of Pyrenees ( In Catalonia)but at 14 he had fled the country with his mum. His dad died early in the conflict ( Spanish Civil war) and his mum perished on the journey on the journey over the Pyrenees.( many did) He lived on a refugee camp for two years on Argeles beach.
He harboured resentment neither towards the Germans or Franco/Spain. I asked him if he had ever wanted to return home. Effectively he told his his home and country had long since gone and this was his home. He had married a French girl but viewed his family as Catalan. Both his children spoke French and Catalan perfectly and a little English. ( They often translated for us)
Probably OT but without personal stories we can miss the real picture.
Are we actually saying we have any right to tell this man and his family Catalan is not a country now , its just a region of Spain. His story is not unique .Thousands upon thousands of Catalans fled their country in fear of their lives for no more than being Catalan.
A common story in the village was the men didn't realise they were French until asked to fight for France. There were a few people in the village looked on as in disgrace, to this day, for colluding with the Germans and / or of Franco.
You underestimate the level of feeling in
the area and its probably for valid reasons.
Do we really think people such as one mentioned should be told " well you agreed to our constitution in 1978" only 30 years after such treatment. ( He would have been 44 in 1978, and couldn't vote anyway, he was told he was French in 1950)

 

[PeterL]

No Flecc, some people are much more motivated and foe very personal reasons.
This might be OT but story worth telling.
When we lived in France we had a small allotment. Over the ten years we were there we got to know the old chap looking after the adjacent plot. Communication was difficult as our French was only slightly worse than his. He spoke Catalan, good Spanish and a little French. He helped us decide what we could and couldn't grow and card for land in our absence. As a boy he,d lived the othe side of Pyrenees but at 14 he had fled the country with his mum. His dad died early in the conflict ( Spanish Civil war) and his mum perished in the journey. He lived on a refugee camp for two years on Argeles beach.
He harboured resentment neither towards the Germans or Franco. I asked him if he had ever wanted to return home. Effectively he told his his home and country had long since gone and this was his home. He had married a French girl but viewed his family as Catalan. Both his children spoke French, Catalan and English perfectly. ( They often translated for us)
Probably OT but without personal stories we can miss the real picture.

A good story and encapsulates your point very well. Indeed, similar stories abound all around the world, none more so than just across the water in Ireland. One might say that time is a good healer but, not so it seems. Your old guy has obviously moved on, literally. He saw and experienced division whereas his children and even more, their children only experience the romance of times gone by, the injustices and some of them, not all, seek to return to the 'good' times. Perhaps that's what BREXIT is all about?

 

[flecc]

A good story and encapsulates your point very well. Indeed, similar stories abound all around the world, none more so than just across the water in Ireland. One might say that time is a good healer but, not so it seems. Your old guy has obviously moved on, literally. He saw and experienced division whereas his children and even more, their children only experience the romance of times gone by, the injustices and some of them, not all, seek to return to the 'good' times. Perhaps that's what BREXIT is all about?

Yes, the message is, never try to go back, the past is never what we think it was.
.

 

[flecc]

No Flecc, some people are much more motivated and for very personal reasons.
This might be OT but story worth telling.
When we lived in France we had a small allotment. Over the ten years we were there we got to know the old chap looking after the adjacent plot. Communication was difficult as our French was only slightly worse than his. He spoke Catalan, good Spanish and a little French. He helped us decide what we could and couldn't grow and cared for land in our absence. As a boy he,d lived the other side of Pyrenees ( In Catalonia)but at 14 he had fled the country with his mum. His dad died early in the conflict ( Spanish Civil war) and his mum perished on the journey on the journey over the Pyrenees.( many did) He lived on a refugee camp for two years on Argeles beach.
He harboured resentment neither towards the Germans or Franco/Spain. I asked him if he had ever wanted to return home. Effectively he told his his home and country had long since gone and this was his home. He had married a French girl but viewed his family as Catalan. Both his children spoke French and Catalan perfectly and a little English. ( They often translated for us)
Probably OT but without personal stories we can miss the real picture.
Are we actually saying we have any right to tell this man and his family Catalan is not a country now , its just a region of Spain. His story is not unique .Thousands upon thousands of Catalans fled their country in fear of their lives for no more than being Catalan.
A common story in the village was the men didn't realise they were French until asked to fight for France. There were a few people in the village looked on as in disgrace, to this day, for colluding with the Germans and / or of Franco.
You underestimate the level of feeling in
the area and its probably for valid reasons.
Do we really think people such as one mentioned should be told " well you agreed to our constitution in 1978" only 30 years after such treatment. ( He would have been 44 in 1978, and couldn't vote anyway, he was told he was French in 1950)

That was then, this is now, and it's only now that counts.

Someones longed for past was often another's misery.
.

 

[mike killay]

Someone's longed for past was often another's misery.
.

Memorable quote

 

[Woosh]

so it looks like Catalans have their own version of brexit.

I can't say that I like the idea, but I do hope that the Catalonian government will learn from our brexit and won't play the card 'the will of the people'.