Perhaps the EU can take a cue from Brexit and present Catalonia with a large bill. They will after all be leaving the EU if they leave Spain, so a multi-billions bill might cool their ardour.
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Fascism returns to Spain
- Thread starter mike killay
- Start date
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It certainly wasn't in example I offered. Besides nobody was wanting to go back to good old days. Recognising a persons country and identity has nothing to do with nostalgia or the past only the future.
Wish Catalans good luck , afterall they have been wanting self determination since 1932...negotiations are taking a while..
In that sense time is rarely on the side of the separatist. People move around and the incomers marry, have children. The mix is continuous the need for self determination reduces... That's at a smaller local level, a little different in the case of BREXIT but, given time...
If you ever wanted a demonstration of why Catalonia (and several other regions of Spain) are so keen on independence, check this out.
This is a bunch of Spanish nationalists "celebrating" the Spanish national holiday by burning Catalan flags (in Barcelona), singing extreme-right Falangist songs from the Franco dictatorship era, and doing Nazi salutes.
People who oppose independence for place like Catalonia usually resort to banging on about how much they hate "nationalism" without even considering the fact that by opposing Catalan independence on the grounds of opposing nationalism, they're implicitly supporting the disgusting right-wing form of Spanish nationalism that has continued to permeate Spanish society ever since the end of the Franco dictatorship in 1975.
How is it that people can be manipulated into to hating and fearing the local civic nationalism of the historically oppressed region, but accepting the violent and abusive extreme-right nationalism of their oppressors?
This Spanish spat is not finished!
Tom
This is a bunch of Spanish nationalists "celebrating" the Spanish national holiday by burning Catalan flags (in Barcelona), singing extreme-right Falangist songs from the Franco dictatorship era, and doing Nazi salutes.
People who oppose independence for place like Catalonia usually resort to banging on about how much they hate "nationalism" without even considering the fact that by opposing Catalan independence on the grounds of opposing nationalism, they're implicitly supporting the disgusting right-wing form of Spanish nationalism that has continued to permeate Spanish society ever since the end of the Franco dictatorship in 1975.
How is it that people can be manipulated into to hating and fearing the local civic nationalism of the historically oppressed region, but accepting the violent and abusive extreme-right nationalism of their oppressors?
This Spanish spat is not finished!
Tom
I fear that this is just the start as opposing groups take their sides.
I believe in democracy, and if the majority of Spaniards wish to be right wing, so be it and I support their right to be so.
It is disappointing to see the return of Franco methods to what should be a mature, civilised debate.
Catalonia was a Communist/Anarchist stronghold during the Civil War and I suppose that those values still hold strong there. They have the absolute right to hold those values although personally I don't like them.
Madrid needs to develop maturity and replace the cosh with the debating chamber.
I believe in democracy, and if the majority of Spaniards wish to be right wing, so be it and I support their right to be so.
It is disappointing to see the return of Franco methods to what should be a mature, civilised debate.
Catalonia was a Communist/Anarchist stronghold during the Civil War and I suppose that those values still hold strong there. They have the absolute right to hold those values although personally I don't like them.
Madrid needs to develop maturity and replace the cosh with the debating chamber.
Not for the first time Mike, (yes really!) I find myself in complete agreement with your comments.
I would have hated to pick a side in 1930s Spain and I am no fan of communism from what I have witnessed in practice - the theory's nice and I suspect Jesus would have loved it - sadly, it seems only to shift the power and control of the money supply and distribution from one bunch of charlatans to another bunch of charlatans, corrupted by the new-found wealth at their disposal and reluctant to lose that control.
One then begins to wonder about the merits of democracy when we see situations like the 1990s Balkans wars, the UK's 'West Lothian' conundrum and the 'Brexit' problem for the Scots, Gibraltarians and Northern Irish folks following the referendum. Democracy begins to look a little fragile when we take account of the question of scale - constituency democracy, city or county, nationwide........nationwide with separate countries with separate parliaments? It all becomes more than a little tricky.
I know it's easy to sit back and criticise when there are no easy answers but if we look at certain other countries which have faced similar challenges, many of those have dealt with their situation far better than the UK and even more particularly, Spain.
There is much that I like about living in Spain and I have always had a good reception there but I am constantly aware of an undercurrent, unspoken but almost tangible, which manifests itself to me in a common hatred of authority, officialdom in general and tax liability in particular.
I wish I had the answers to these problems that beset us all; problems which seem to transcend international borders. Perhaps mankind, like plant life, needs thinning out from time to time in order to blossom fully again after a natural disaster like wildfire or volcanic eruption. Is the only hope for a better future a war of global proportions which reduces the world population enormously, causing the survivors to engross themselves in rebuilding for several years before beginning the cycle of death and re-birth once again?
Tom
This is to clarify my dislike rating... The sentiments expressed in the top 90% of the post , I like.. However the musings that we would as a species be improved by periodical annihilation is so repugnant, that it counteracts the preceding passages.
Many thousands of species would disagree, and if our planet could have an opinion, it probably would too.
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Fascism also returns to Austria... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/15/austria-set-to-elect-youngest-eu-leader-in-move-to-the-right
That is the scariest election poster I have seen in a while...
That is the scariest election poster I have seen in a while...
Improvement by annihilation is surely impossible...might be more peaceful or an overall improvement for the planet..doesn't annihilation mean nobody left..??
Blimey! I wasn't suggesting or recommending it as a course of action 'Danidl'. However, throughout history such population-reducing atrocities have occurred in most parts of the known world for as long as man has had the ability to record events for posterity.
In 20th century history, a few names spring readily to mind such as Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler, General Galtieri, Augusto Pinochet, Chairman Mao but there were many other incidences less well covered by western media.
Examples among them would be Rwanda, Armenia, Ukraine and the Japanese extermination of Chinese people. Some of these events would be referred to as atrocities while others became know as genocide - I don't know how journalists or historians measure such events and how the nomenclature is appended but there is no getting away from the fact that these horrendous events span all known periods of history.
Having just re-read what I have typed, I'm astonished that I missed out the 1990s Balkans wars but a few common threads link all these events and others; dictators, extremism, tribalism, fascism and racism. I'd guess it probably wouldn't be too difficult to make a case for various middle-east countries too and Saddam Hussein and Colonel Gadaffi come easily to mind.
So, just to be clear; musings yes but as a recommendation or political necessity or initiative, no thank you.
Tom
I didn't know this till today but yesterday was the 77th anniversary of the execution of the then President of Catalonia.
This was the man:
This tells a little about it:
77 years ago today the fascist Spanish nationalist dictatorship of Francisco Franco executed the democratically elected President of Catalonia Lluís Companys after he was kidnapped and handed over to them by the Nazi Gestapo.
Companys remains the only incumbent democratically elected President in European history to have been executed.
Last week Pablo Cascado, a minister from the ruling hard-right Spanish nationalist government, issued a veiled death threat against the current Catalan President Carles Puigdemont, saying that he could end up just like Companys for seeking Catalan independence.
Amazingly some people don't see a problem with this kind of extreme Franco-glorifying Spanish nationalist rhetoric.
Obviously anyone who either likes Catalonia, respects democracy, or despises people who glorify fascist dictatorships would be horrified by this veiled death threat, but even if you strongly oppose Catalan independence (for whatever reason) it hardly takes genius level intelligence to realise that right-wing Spanish nationalists in Madrid issuing threats to depose and execute the Catalan President just like their fascist predecessors did in 1940, is precisely the kind of vile rhetoric that's certain to drive non-partisan people into the welcoming arms of Catalan secessionists.
Amazingly Pablo Cascado is still in his job, but the Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy is a weak and directionless wannabe-tyrant with a minority government, so he couldn't sack his ministers for spewing vile rhetoric like that, even if he wanted to (just as Theresa May couldn't sack Boris Johnson for all of his ridiculously bigoted comments and spectacularly off-message remarks, even if she wanted to).
Tom
This was the man:
This tells a little about it:
77 years ago today the fascist Spanish nationalist dictatorship of Francisco Franco executed the democratically elected President of Catalonia Lluís Companys after he was kidnapped and handed over to them by the Nazi Gestapo.
Companys remains the only incumbent democratically elected President in European history to have been executed.
Last week Pablo Cascado, a minister from the ruling hard-right Spanish nationalist government, issued a veiled death threat against the current Catalan President Carles Puigdemont, saying that he could end up just like Companys for seeking Catalan independence.
Amazingly some people don't see a problem with this kind of extreme Franco-glorifying Spanish nationalist rhetoric.
Obviously anyone who either likes Catalonia, respects democracy, or despises people who glorify fascist dictatorships would be horrified by this veiled death threat, but even if you strongly oppose Catalan independence (for whatever reason) it hardly takes genius level intelligence to realise that right-wing Spanish nationalists in Madrid issuing threats to depose and execute the Catalan President just like their fascist predecessors did in 1940, is precisely the kind of vile rhetoric that's certain to drive non-partisan people into the welcoming arms of Catalan secessionists.
Amazingly Pablo Cascado is still in his job, but the Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy is a weak and directionless wannabe-tyrant with a minority government, so he couldn't sack his ministers for spewing vile rhetoric like that, even if he wanted to (just as Theresa May couldn't sack Boris Johnson for all of his ridiculously bigoted comments and spectacularly off-message remarks, even if she wanted to).
Tom
This despicable murder in Malta may not be the last we hear from that tiny EU state.
malta-car-bomb-kills-panama-papers-journalist
Tom
malta-car-bomb-kills-panama-papers-journalist
Tom
I once saw written.
'Snouting, trousering, gravy train riding, pathological, lying, refuse.
I wonder just who the writer was referring to?
'Snouting, trousering, gravy train riding, pathological, lying, refuse.
I wonder just who the writer was referring to?
Mmm.....That's a tough one Mike! As it could refer to either house, if pressed, I'd opt for the HofL but only deserving of that denunciation by a smidgen.
Tom
Sad times are returning, the black clouds of the 1930s never really went away.
WHY do we have to go through this all again?
I was born in the Second World War, my Dad was badly wounded, I was a baby and me and my grandpa were wounded when something came through the window.
Sadly Mike, the human species never seems to learn the lessons of history even though there have been scribes of one sort or another recording major conflicts and catastrophic events since time began.
Although I don't find solace in the man's words, I do think, of all the writers I have read who wrote describing contemporary life in their time, the Scots poet, Robert Burns had a marvellous insight into human nature. I won't quote him here as his pearls of wisdom and his beautiful turn of phrase are known worldwide. Suffice to say that although we consider humanity has progressed since his time, when we cut away all the unnecessary chaff and the trappings of present-day society, the life of the common man hasn't really changed much at all.
Avarice is perhaps the deadliest of sins and our nation's history, though not unique to us, is rather shameful. We have developed hatred for various other peoples from time to time and still do, even though no child ever born has hatred within him or her. When we come to understand how unacceptable the message of this infographic is, we may well be on the way to stopping the wars which rob everyone of their humanity, just so the rich and powerful can continue unchallenged.
Tom