Electric Mountain Bikes: No one will buy one?!..

...Is what everyone said when Haibike took the first ever Bosch eMTB to EuroBike in 2011.

Boy they were wrong!

4 years later and Europe now peaking over 500,000 eBikes a year, the biggest growth factor being the electric mountain bikes. More and more are starting to make the transition over the the 'dark side' to ride longer, harder and faster off road. Just back from EuroBike last week and was hard to spot a manufacturer that wasn't making a eMTB! Guess there's a lot of catching up to do... Anyway back to the point:

I have been working hard to promote the use of eMTB's over here on UK shores over the last few years (sorry if I have been a little quiet on the forum, been mega busy here), it really dawned on me yesterday how many people enjoy are now taking to the eSport when riding with my fellow owners club chums.

As I looked around I realised that we were not the MINORITY out on the trails yesterday, for the first time ever we were the MAJORITY.

Now admittedly, yes, this is an eBike club BUT the remarks and questions of other intrigued 'Analogue' bikers out on the trails has changed. Before, they instantly dismissed it, with remarks like: 'cheat' or 'I enjoy pedalling my bike'. Now it is widely accepted & understood, with even the purist of riders are starting to ask sensible questions. They have a quick spin and totally 'get it'. In fact, a few rides ago, I had a young lad almost try and part ex me his lovely Santa Cruz MTB whilst out on the trails!

Are the tides turning?..

Martin

P.S If you want to see what we get up to, find the full article of yesterday's ride with pictures here.

Feedback over on Facebook from a club member today after the ride:

Great review as ever Martin. Each one of these rides gets better as the riders skills start to improve on each outing. If the e-bike haters thought they would never catch on, then I suspect they were completly pissed off after yesterday. The flood is happening!!

Hi Martin.

Could we have a public reply on your standpoint on the use of eBikes with dongles and pedelecs offroad please.

Our stand point is that it is only going to take one accident involving such bikes at a trail centre or on forestry commission land for the land owners / powers that be to ban eBikes generally completely. They won't be able to ban dongled (sPedelecs) ebikes, because they are actually already banned (illegal) currently.

The fears of many in the eBike industry is that the development of this important market (eMTBs) could be halted before if it really gets started due to the irresponsible selling of a small minority in the industry, to many customers who don't even realise what they are doing wrong.

Your defence to this point would make interesting reading for many, and would therefore be appreciated I'm sure.

Regards

Col

Hi Col,

I will politely ask that this comment be removed. I have been off the forum for a while, but would appreciate a thread (not another) about the use of dongles. It's not what the thread is about. Plus (as I am sure many will agree) it just gets boring..

I've asked a simply question. You've posted about eMTBs, and I've asked a question of you, that is totally relevant to your topic.

If you post the reply to my question, I can quote it and start a new thread and I'll happily delete this one.

You posted a reply... so you could have simply replied to the actual question and then we could all move on. Its not hard is it?

A nice upbeat thread about e-mtb popularity gets spoiled.

Give it a rest Col.

Having just got back from 3 weeks on the road visting eBike shops, including time spent with Bosch and others at EuroBike.... a reply to this topic is very much needed from Martin, and now's his chance.

I'm afraid its not the enjoyment of this thread that is there to be spoiled... its the enjoyment of e-MTB's generally that we're all worried about. A simply reply from Martin and my comments will go away.

Col

Do the decent thing. Delete your posts & start your own thread.

I've asked a simple question.... if Martin replies... and I'll go away.

I just want to know how he can claim...

 

I have been working hard to promote the use of eMTB's over here on UK shores over the last few years

When all the evidence suggests he's just looking to make a quick buck out of it, whilst potentially killing the industry long term and also prevent lots of eBikes shops (and I'm actually talking about HaiBike dealers) from selling legal bikes because he so aggressively pushes bikes that can't legally be used anywhere really.

I'd be prepared to bet my entire business that there are a good number of people in that photo he's posted that aren't riding pedlecs' and therefore aren't riding eMTBs at all!

He's not promoting eMTB, he's trying to make money out of it, and hopes no ones involved in an accident before he's made enough to retire.

Or.... and this is your chance to defend yourself Martin.... What are you doing?

I think that KTM Bike Industries UK has a raised a perfectly valid question, as has Soundwave in relation to warranty claims for Bosch powered bikes fitted with dongles.

Contrary to what you say Martin, you are actively helping to kill the off road use of e-mtb's, not supporting the role of them at all.

I see no reason or need to start another thread, this one is about e-mtb's, you sell and promote the use of dongles, you have in the past always avoided any questions about the use of dongles, so why not do the right thing, and answer the questions instead of avoiding them. Both questions should be easily answerable, but as we know you won't, and will instead just choose to ignore the thread from here on in.

edit.. Now that Bosch are making headway with setting up a UK operations base for the motor systems, it would seem to be a good time to invite the newly appointed Bosch representative to share his companies thoughts about the subject of dongles and warranty claims.

Quoting myself below from another recent thread. http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/changes-in-s-pedelecs-laws.20625/

"Being blunt, I'm pretty fecked off with the daily mention that dongles get scattered throughout seemingly every thread on here (Soundwave)

I'm fecked off, because dongles are hitting a nail firmly into the coffin of my hobby.

You might not realise this Soundwave, but amongst others, such as Martin at ebike shop, you are doing the off road side of e-bike use no favours at all.

Last year I had a very in-depth conversation with Wiggle events over the use of e-mtb's. The end result was that the organisers were tolerating them, but anyone found to be using a dongle, would be dealt with appropriately, and the use of e-mtb's would be questioned.

I've only completed two Wiggle events this year, and have kept away from drawing any attention to the bike and myself.

At the Evans Ride It event a couple of weeks ago, when I stopped at the food stop, one of the event organisers was there. I spent a pleasant 15mins or so talking to him, then he asked what bike that I was riding. I went on to explain that it was an e-mtb, and the tone of conversation instantly changed. He wanted to see the bike, and I was asked loads of questions, all of which very polite, wrote my entrance number down, then went on to explain that within the previous week, they as a company, had been having telephone conversations about the very subject of e-mtb's and more specifically, e-mtb's fitted with dongles. He was telling me that they don't have the resources to police these events to stop people using dongles, so there may be a blanket ban on their use. All this started because a pedal mtb rider had raised concerns. I guess that my rider number was taken in order to check my ride time.

I was also talking a day or so ago to someone who had made a recent visit to a trail centre in Wales, and knowing my interest in e-mtb's, the lad got talking to someone on the uplift about e-mtb's. Again because of dongles, and not being able to police the use of them, e-mtb's are probably going to be facing bleak future.

I've said it often enough that dongles aren't required for off road use, and that is with me having sole permitted access to the best part of 1,000 acres of land to ride on, with no public rights of way. Thanks to those that are using e-mtb's fitted with dongles in places that utilise public access, e-mtb users as whole could be facing a bleak future where less and less places will be openly available to ride.

If e-mtb riders are going to stopped from entering organised events or riding in bike parks, for all I know it could just be a matter of time before they get banned from other places such as public bridleways as well. I know that I'm not happy about the thought of that one."

Edited September 7, 201510 yr by EddiePJ

well looks as he has run away again and not wanting to answer basic questions, again why i got totally *** with him and will not give him a penny of my money.

"I will politely ask that this comment be removed. I have been off the forum for a while, but would appreciate a thread (not another) about the use of dongles. It's not what the thread is about. Plus (as I am sure many will agree) it just gets boring.."

i will also remove my comments if you answer these questions.

1 how can you honer the bosch motor warranty when bosch will void it if a dongle is used.?

are you buying them out of ur own pocket as i doubt it or wiping the motors memory so they cant tell a dongle has been used to get replacements from bosch as all dealers i have spoke 2 will void all warranty if dongle is used.

please tell us all how you get round this.

2 if someone with a dongle bike kills some one have you got millions to pay out in compo as you fitted it after all.

3 our bikes only wtf is it with that as can get every part cheaper my self anyway.

4 why no dongle option with the kids bike?

5 https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/Electric-Bikes-UK-Dealer/Moustache-Dimanche-Speed-2015

why offer a dongle with that as will not go any faster will it as all bosch performance motors are 350w restricted to 250w thus dongle not do anything.

custom bad as dongle will do 50 mph cut off 75kph

there dongles also cut out same speed 30 mph

Must admit, I'm gutted reading through this thread.

I'm a new e-biker and very much enjoying my Haibike which I bought from Martin.

I did some research (limited to be fair) and I genuinely thought that he was one of the good guys.

Hopefully you'll respond Martin - your reputation is at stake....

Must admit, I'm gutted reading through this thread.

 

I'm a new e-biker and very much enjoying my Haibike which I bought from Martin.

 

I did some research (limited to be fair) and I genuinely thought that he was one of the good guys.

 

Hopefully you'll respond Martin - your reputation is at stake....

I thought he was,but sadly he would be the last person I would ever buy an ebike from as I made an appointment to see him on the Thurs before Good Friday however I did not realise this at the time of making the appointment and as it was late in the afternoon time slot I was allocated I cancelled with view of re booking,but the reaction I got was not very professional all he was concerned about was he would have an empty time slot he could not fill as it was to short notice.

And as he will only offer support and after sales to existing customers is pretty poor however his choice,but then actively promote his range of wares on this forum is wrong.

Sorry for the rant.

You should all take Marin's advice to start your own thread about the use of dongles rather than hijacking his one, though it would be pretty boring. All the questions have been discussed and answered before.

Send me a link to where Martin has answered my questions about how he can say he's promoting eMTB, when according to EVERYONE else in the industry he's actually doing the exact opposite, for very selfish reasons and I'll happily delete all my comments.

And I'm sure others will do the same, if you can show them where he's answered the specific questions about his stance on his liability risk of promoting and selling the bikes with dongles, and also voiding the Bosch warranty.

He's claiming to be the UK leading Bosch centre, they do not speak highly of him at all.

He's been asked by me and others to explain things, and as he's tried previously to become a KTM customer I think I and others are entitled to a reply on these important questions.

This isn't a thread that's debating the use of dongles or anything like that - this is a specific trade customer who's using the forum to advertise his business being asked specific questions. Its not the same old debate. I've just asked Martin to explain himself, as soon as he responds, I'll delete all this and post it in a new thread.

At the moment I think his silence speaks volumes.

But I would love to read the logic to how he thinks selling and promoting the use of illegal bikes, that leave his customer's open to huge liability risks whilst also having the very real potential of destroying access for eMTBs that are legal right across the UK ... is promoting eMTBs.

Send me a link to where Martin has answered my questions about how he can say he's promoting eMTB, when according to EVERYONE else in the industry he's actually doing the exact opposite, for very selfish reasons and I'll happily delete all my comments.

 

And I'm sure others will do the same, if you can show them where he's answered the specific questions about his stance on his liability risk of promoting and selling the bikes with dongles, and also voiding the Bosch warranty.

 

He's claiming to be the UK leading Bosch centre, they do not speak highly of him at all.

 

He's been asked by me and others to explain things, and as he's tried previously to become a KTM customer I think I and others are entitled to a reply on these important questions.

 

This isn't a thread that's debating the use of dongles or anything like that - this is a specific trade customer who's using the forum to advertise his business being asked specific questions. Its not the same old debate. I've just asked Martin to explain himself, as soon as he responds, I'll delete all this and post it in a new thread.

 

At the moment I think his silence speaks volumes.

 

But I would love to read the logic to how he thinks selling and promoting the use of illegal bikes, that leave his customer's open to huge liability risks whilst also having the very real potential of destroying access for eMTBs that are legal right across the UK ... is promoting eMTBs.

indeed, its doesn't sound about dongles anymore, rather commercial competition and discrediting of rivals. maybe the new thread should have that heading?

Send me a link to where Martin has answered my questions

He doesn't have to answer anything. It's a free world. The point is that you already asked the questions in the other thread. If you want to bore us all again, start your own thread about it.

I'm afraid you're not making much sense d8veh.....

First you said:

All the questions have been discussed and answered before.

When I asked you where, you didn't reply?

Now you've said I've already asked him these questions...

He doesn't have to answer anything. It's a free world. The point is that you already asked the questions in the other thread. If you want to bore us all again, start your own thread about it.

so again, can I ask you where have I has Marting these questions before?

This is the first time I've asked, and its because he's said...

I have been working hard to promote the use of eMTB's over here on UK shores over the last few years

I want him to justify this statement, because it couldn't be more false according to all the Haibike dealers I've visited, according to Bosch and according to our understanding as a brand that sells eMTB.

His actions are having a direct negative impact on the perception of eMTB's that are being used offroad at trail centres and events, and having met a number of these customers personally... none of them have a clue that they are riding illegal vehicles, and the liability risks this puts onto them. They also don't appreciate the harm they are causing regarding access issues....

Yes, he's totally free to ignore my question, but I hope that this speaks volumes to anyone reading this.

If he does respond I'll happily take on board anything he has to say, and then delete all my posts in this thread.

But all your replying does, is keep this thread at the top of the list and keep more people viewing it and drag on the discussion you seem to want to stop. If you want it to stop... STOP posting and just wait for Martin to reply or ignore the questions he's being asked.

I'm afraid you're not making much sense d8veh.....

 

First you said:

 

 

 

When I asked you where, you didn't reply?

 

Now you've said I've already asked him these questions...

 

 

 

so again, can I ask you where have I has Marting these questions before?

 

This is the first time I've asked, and its because he's said...

 

 

 

I want him to justify this statement, because it couldn't be more false according to all the Haibike dealers I've visited, according to Bosch and according to our understanding as a brand that sells eMTB.

 

His actions are having a direct negative impact on the perception of eMTB's that are being used offroad at trail centres and events, and having met a number of these customers personally... none of them have a clue that they are riding illegal vehicles, and the liability risks this puts onto them. They also don't appreciate the harm they are causing regarding access issues....

 

Yes, he's totally free to ignore my question, but I hope that this speaks volumes to anyone reading this.

 

If he does respond I'll happily take on board anything he has to say, and then delete all my posts in this thread.

 

But all your replying does, is keep this thread at the top of the list and keep more people viewing it and drag on the discussion you seem to want to stop. If you want it to stop... STOP posting and just wait for Martin to reply or ignore the questions he's being asked.

to me this is where hijacking becomes bullying. its the point where I think moderators of a forum could take an interest in what's happening.

to me this is where hijacking becomes bullying. its the point where I think moderators of a forum could take an interest in what's happening.

I take slight issue with the hijack comment, seen as I replied directly to a comment in the OP asking for some clarification. Thats not a hijack in anyway shape of form is it?

However if you're accusing me of bullying Dave or Martin thats not my intention.. so if you can tell me which bit has offended, I'll try to amened it, as its not my intention to cause any distress to anyone. I just asked a question and loads of people seem to want to have an input, other than the person I actually asked.

Edited September 8, 201510 yr by KTM Bike Industries UK

to me this is where hijacking becomes bullying. its the point where I think moderators of a forum could take an interest in what's happening.

I don't think It is bullying at all then you cannot make a person answer the question having said that as he is a Haibike dealer and if he was a true enthusiast in regards to promoting emtb in the UK then the question should not bother him,but from my own experiences with his business I would say it's just about profit regardless of any legal issues

I don't think It is bullying at all then you cannot make a person answer the question having said that as he is a Haibike dealer and if he was a true enthusiast in regards to promoting emtb in the UK then the question should not bother him,but from my own experiences with his business I would say it's just about profit regardless of any legal issues

telling members of the forum how and when they are allowed to react to postings - after changing the subject of a thread to make it about cross examining an OP amounts to bullying, for me.