Electric Mountain Bikes: No one will buy one?!..

[Deleted member 4366]

I'm sure that they know exactly what they're doing. The question was who certified the bikes and how did you get round the 48v requirement? You might notice that there are not many other certified bikes with 48v batteries.

The law for lights applies to all bicycles, electric or not. From CTC website:
Front Lamp
One is required, showing a white light, positioned centrally or offside, up to 1500mm from the ground, aligned towards and visible from the front. If capable of emitting a steady light, it must be marked as conforming to BS6102/3 or an equivalent EC standard.

Go to any bike shop, see if you can find one marked like that. Basically, all those nice bright LED lights don't conform. I fact some could be construed as downright dangerous. Checkout what your dealers are offering to be fitted to your bikes next time you visit them.

 

[EddiePJ]

It's not as clear as that though is it.

Taken from the same link that you visited, but which you conveniently choose to leave out. Also just for the record, Halfords, Decathlon and Eurolight all sell BS approved lights.

The Euro-friendly clause
Thanks to a European Directive of a few years ago, wherever a British Standard (BS) is referred to, equivalent standards from other EC countries must now also be recognised - but only if they provide an equivalent level of safety. It’s not exactly clear which do. However Germany has arguably the strictest cycle lighting laws in Europe so we consider it safe to use equipment that is marked accordingly, with a “K~number”. (My KTM road bike came fitted K866 marked lights fitted as standard, and still retains them)

It should also be noted that wherever a British Standard is referred to, that reference applies to a specific edition. In the case of BS6102/3, that is the 1986 edition, as amended on 15th April 1995 and again on 1st September 2003. These amendments (in conjunction with the 1994 amendment of RVLR) removed the filament bulb design restrictions, so that lamps may now get their light from LEDs, HIDs – or whatever comes next!

Some cyclists like to fit extra lamps and reflectors, in addition to the approved ones specified above. This is perfectly legal provided they are the correct colour and in an appropriate position.

These optional lamps and reflectors do not have to comply with any standards, but it’s illegal to use some designs of lamp or reflector that have specific other uses. You must not, for instance, show a red light at the front, or a white light to the rear, or fit triangular-shaped rear reflectors on anything other than trailer.

The suggestion that any lamp on a bicycle might cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other users of the road would have been laughable a few years ago, but not any more. It is not only illegal but doesn't actually improve your safety, should the person driving a heavy motor vehicle towards you be temporarily blinded by your headlamp! So please don't let it do that.


Flashers
Thanks to the 2005 RVLR amendment on 23 October of that year it finally became legal to have a flashing light on a pedal cycle, provided it flashes between 60 and 240 times per minute (1 – 4Hz).

Even better: it became possible for a flashing light to be approved, meaning no other light would be needed in that position. And since BS6102/3 does not cater for flashing, approval is granted simply on the basis of brightness (as specified above).

Because DfT very much prefer things to be evaluated against a proper technical standard wherever possible: any flashing lamp that is also capable of emitting a steady light is approved only if it conforms with BS6102/3 when switched to steady mode. Since most flashing lights do also have a steady mode, they're legal but not approved, so you'll probably need another lamp that is.

Unfortunately Britain is not the force it once was in the world cycle market, with the result that very few manufacturers can nowadays be bothered to test and mark their products to our standards. So it can be really hard nowadays, to find any approved lamp for sale these days, flashing or not!

 

[Izzyekerslike]

Izzy, it's not that off topic. It could equally have been a Haibike.

Having said that, I didn't spot the cable ties that are required to hold the suspension linkages together.

m6
Eddie! Thanks to you I am now the proud owner of a top of the range bicycle torque Wrench and a tube of blue thread lock so I can carry out proper and regular maintenance. Still got the cable ties though (belt and braces)

 

[soundwave]

lets see this super wrench then

 

[soundwave]

i got 1 now

 

[Izzyekerslike]

Superwrench as requested. I bought from bike-discount.com who are based in Germany it's worth looking at their site as prices are mostly cheaper than Wiggle etc.. Was going to buy all the chemicals etc to mint my bike like EddiePJ but will need to save up for a while

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

Question from a beginner:
If someone modifies their bike after the original legal sale, for personal off road use (and not organised trails), is that still ok?

Do these motors have an ecu to regord their mode of use? Say something does break on the motor, could a presence of a dongle be recognised since all of them are removable?

I take everyone's view for their own reasons, especially whatever is legal currently in the UK even if we may think it's wrong.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I doubt that anyone coild tell that you had used one. There's a bit of scare-mongering, but I can't see how there could be any record, since the cpu can only know what's happening by reading the sensors, but the srnsors have been tricked to give the wrong result, which the cpu can't know.

Apart from that, many of them have some hard wiring that can't be quickly removed, so if someone checked your bike, they could tell that you had the potential to alter your bike's speed.

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

Yes I have seen some will fit inside the area of the motor so not just a quick removal, I agree.

 

[soundwave]

its why i have a bad ass dongle as can take it off press reset and bike back to default.

and its 50 quid cheaper and will do a 75kph if you ask them

still a rip off for what it is tho

 

[tillson]

Question from a beginner:
If someone modifies their bike after the original legal sale, for personal off road use (and not organised trails), is that still ok?

Do these motors have an ecu to regord their mode of use? Say something does break on the motor, could a presence of a dongle be recognised since all of them are removable?

I take everyone's view for their own reasons, especially whatever is legal currently in the UK even if we may think it's wrong.

It depends on what you mean by off road use. Off road, for the purposes of using a modified bike doesn't mean on a bridle way or cycle path. To be legal, off road means on private land, with the land owners permission and no access to members of the public.

If a dongle is fitted and then something goes wrong, I suspect that the owner could remove it, go back to the dealer, look them in the eye, and with great sincerity tell them that they had never fitted a dongle. The dealer would not be able to prove that the person is a liar because nothing is recorded, so they would end up footing the bill for a warranty claim. How clever is that?

 

[Gubbins]

It depends on what you mean by off road use. Off road, for the purposes of using a modified bike doesn't mean on a bridle way or cycle path. To be legal, off road means on private land, with the land owners permission and no access to members of the public.

If a dongle is fitted and then something goes wrong, I suspect that the owner could remove it, go back to the dealer, look them in the eye, and with great sincerity tell them that they had never fitted a dongle. The dealer would not be able to prove that the person is a liar because nothing is recorded, so they would end up footing the bill for a warranty claim. How clever is that?

I just don't understand how warranties keep popping up in the dongle threads.
Surely everyone knows that if you fiddle about with something or use it outside the terms of the guarantee you invalidate your warranty !

However you dress it up, squirm about with minor technicalities or try to convince yourself, and eveyone else, that you are not doing anything wrong. . You really know you are!

All my life I have known a simple fact.. if you want to modify some expensive kit you wait until the guarantee runs out, or stand the consequences.

Or, as Tillson has suggested you need to be a good liar, which could turn out embarrassing.

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

It depends on what you mean by off road use. Off road, for the purposes of using a modified bike doesn't mean on a bridle way or cycle path. To be legal, off road means on private land, with the land owners permission and no access to members of the public.

If a dongle is fitted and then something goes wrong, I suspect that the owner could remove it, go back to the dealer, look them in the eye, and with great sincerity tell them that they had never fitted a dongle. The dealer would not be able to prove that the person is a liar because nothing is recorded, so they would end up footing the bill for a warranty claim. How clever is that?

Why is the dealer footing the bill when there is still a running warranty?

Say no dongles involved, a motor breaks down under warranty, why would the bill be if any cost to the dealer? Isn't the manufacturer covering that?

In the off road front, a park with cycle paths isn't considered off road? I wouldn't go cycle on someone's private land to be honest.

 

[tillson]

Why is the dealer footing the bill when there is still a running warranty?

Say no dongles involved, a motor breaks down under warranty, why would the bill be if any cost to the dealer? Isn't the manufacturer covering that?

In the off road front, a park with cycle paths isn't considered off road? I wouldn't go cycle on someone's private land to be honest.

Dealer or manufacturer, someone would be footing the bill in the circumstances outlined in my original post. The repair would be based upon a lie. The lie being that the user had not fitted a dongle.

No, a park with cycle paths isn't off road in these circumstances. The only legal place would be on private land with the land owners permission, and the public excluded. Not much point really.

 

[JohnCade]

Why is the dealer footing the bill when there is still a running warranty?

Say no dongles involved, a motor breaks down under warranty, why would the bill be if any cost to the dealer? Isn't the manufacturer covering that?

In the off road front, a park with cycle paths isn't considered off road? I wouldn't go cycle on someone's private land to be honest.

It’s the way the warranty works. Basically it’s bicycle warranties, which because bikes were fairly easy to fix were held by the shop selling the bike. Now many ebikes are like small electric motor bikes, and people take them many miles away on holiday and abroad, but you are still stuck with taking it back to the place you bought it.

Off road means private land with the owner’s permission and where there is no public access. So practically nowhere in other words. Unless you have a friend who has a large estate or farm with no footpaths or bridal ways running through it. A cycle path in a park or anywhere else very much requires a legal bike unless you go over to the dark side.

 

[Vasilis_Pap]

I have to read more the law of what is off road and what not!

As for the bill, I agree but there is limited honesty in every aspect of warranties nowdays, from bike phones with an aftermarket battery to a car with something slightly different that what the manufacturer says. Not to mention that warranties are also specifically sometimes made just for the company to sell more and avoid getting the bill when they should.


In addition, if these motors can take up to 350w in order to be sold in countries that do not have the 250w rule, then fitting a dongle in the UK though illegal, should not void the warranty as all it does is enables the full potential of the motor's power. Isn't that right? (Theoretically speaking).

 

[tillson]

The dongle doesn't increase the motor's power output. It simply tricks the motor into thinking the bike is travelling slower than it really is. As a result, the motor keeps on providing power beyond the 15 MPH cut off speed. That power is the same value as the motor's original rating, no enhancement.

 

[JohnCade]

I don’t think the dongle makes the motor more powerful. It just bypasses the cut out allowing the motor to run faster in a high gear. I assume the 350W versions use different controllers allowing more voltage to the motor.

Whether something should or should not happen is all bit academic. But any modification to practically anything will void a warranty. With many electrical items just opening it up will void the warranty.

 

[Nealh]

I have to read more the law of what is off road and what not!

Its been stated here several times anywhere that the public has legal or permissive access to so all marked paths, foot, bridle,parks,forestry etc etc.

 

[Gubbins]

Its been stated here several times anywhere that the public has legal or permissive access to so all marked paths, foot, bridle,parks,forestry etc etc.

Does it really matter what's law? Even on a well used canal towpath I have seen totally irisponsible and downright dangerous riding around young children. . And what can you do? Absolutely nothing! There are no police or cctv there so anyone can break the law willy nilly without concern. Quite near to me someone ended up dead in the water which prompted police action and the culprit was found eventually but any lesser transgression would be laughed at if reported.