Electric Mountain Bikes: No one will buy one?!..

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I've been riding motorcycles for 30 years - I completely understand the risks!

You need to stop the generalisations - all things don't apply to all people....

What???? Which part of the law and liability risk don't apply universally?

Help me understand.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Colin, I think you're just stirring up hystria. A lot of your logic is unsound IMHO. You say that fitting a dongle converts your bicycle into a motorcycle because it no longer complies with the exemption offered by EN15194. .

d9veh... please assume that as someone who does this for a living, I've checked most of the things.

EN 15194 only concerns the electric part of the vehicle, whereas for the bicycle part EN 14764 applies.

 

[rippedupno1]

Is d9veh, d8veh but fitted with a dongle? Pmsl

 

[RobF]

Ok, so you're taking a punt, .

Col,

I have plenty of insurance.

What I am trying to get across to you is I don't assume any claim I make under any policy will be paid.

That applies to all my insurance policies.

If my house burns down, it really ought to be covered by my buildings and contents policies.

But until the money is in my account, I make no assumptions.

The chances of a total burn out of my house are low, and the chances of the insurance not paying if the place is reduced to ashes are also low.

I don't lose any sleep worrying about it, but there is what I would describe as a minute risk of a total loss to me.

 

[Plasmadaddy]

What???? Which part of the law and liability risk don't apply universally?

Help me understand.

Errr that people need to go into a motorbike shop and ask about risks, as stated in one of your previous posts!

Is anyone really that stupid?
I guess some people might be but we're not all thick!!

Blimey this thread has gone so far off topic it's getting silly....

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Errr that people need to go into a motorbike shop and ask about risks, as stated in one of your previous posts!

Is anyone really that stupid?
I guess some people might be but we're not all thick!!

Blimey this thread has gone so far off topic it's getting silly....

its a thread... that means it can weave its way into a number of discussions, which benefit those involved.

So I'm trying to learn.

Ok, so you know about motorbikes. Would you ride a motorbike on the road, or offroad without tax, insurance MOT etc etc?

 

[rippedupno1]

Somewhat off topic , for which i apologise. But i would be really interested to know from Martin (with no judgement whatsoever as to the legality ) what percentage of his crank drive bikes are ordered with a dongle and is that percentage increasing or not . As plenty of people on this forum assume that because Martin is selling them there must be thousands of dongled bikes out there, when that might not be the case, i have no idea , hence the question.

 

[Plasmadaddy]

Ok, so you know about motorbikes. Would you ride a motorbike on the road, or offroad without tax, insurance MOT etc etc?

Nope!

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Nope!

ok... that was the answer I was expecting.

I'll therefore assume that you, like me, know all the reasons why this is a bad idea.

So would you suggest its ok for someone to ride something that is legally classed as a motorbike on the road without tax, insurance, MOT etc etc?

 

[Plasmadaddy]

So would you suggest its ok for someone to ride something that is legally classed as a motorbike on the road without tax, insurance, MOT etc etc?

I'm not "suggesting" anyone do anything!

All I'm saying is that people need to form their own opinions and make their own decisions.

I'm not sure quoting EN numbers (which go over most peoples heads) makes the slightest bit of difference to your average punter!

 

[soundwave]

he removed my comment from fb so will not give me an answer been 2 years now and give up.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

d9veh... please assume that as someone who does this for a living,
EN 15194 only concerns the electric part of the vehicle, whereas for the bicycle part EN 14764 applies.

I learnt a long time ago not to assume anything because it makes an ass out of u and me.

One of the specific and fundamental requirements of EN15194 (4.1) is that the bike complies with EN 14764. It's even stated in the Analysis at the beginning.

While I think about it, your Panasonic hub-motors run with a 13-cell battery, which will reach 54v. How do you get round the bit where it says, "limitation of the voltage to 48v"? Chinese SGS will not certify anything with a 48v battery. Who certified your bikes?

 

[Gubbins]

Am I the only one that think this is all a tad OTT.
I find that my e-mtb in turbo is brilliant at navigating snarled up traffic on a friday afternoon and I know I take a risk or two which could result in my being knocked off and hurt but I am sure that the last thing that would be commented on is whether or not it has been dongled. But it's my risk and it'd me that will stand any consequences arising from my actions.
I have no idea how many e bikes out there have illegal power output or speed cut off , and how many of those are dongled mtb's, I suspect not a lot, and I don't see any mention in the news of anything untoward in this area.. so why all this fuss? This threat of dire consequences had been rumbling on now for a couple of years and will probably do so for much longer..

 

[rippedupno1]

@Phill,i agree. hence my earlier question of Martin, I would love to know what the reality really was re the percentage of bikes that are actually ordered with a dongle.

 

[Gubbins]

@Phill,i agree. hence my earlier question of Martin, I would love to know what the reality really was re the percentage of bikes that are actually ordered with a dongle.

But he could only advise on what he sells.. they are available from many other places are they not? perhaps you could start a poll.... do you. Or don't you?
Personally I don't. ..

 

[Kudoscycles]

There's a lot of underlying aggression in this thread as far as I can tell.

As a new owner of a Haibike, having read through this thread all I want to make sure of, is that the warranty will be honoured.

I'll be perfectly honest, I have the "faster" version. I assumed that given the kit was fitted by Martin it would be fine if there was a problem.

I'm not going to be tearing up the landscape (I live in London so no trails near me sadly!) and I do ride very carefully - I'm an older bloke with 2 kids who need a father!

I'm not looking for a row about the rights and wrongs of a dongle - I'm fully aware of them.

I just want to make sure my bike will be taken care of if something should happen.

Haibike is imported by Raleigh,why not ask them the warranty situation if a dongle is fitted ? Raleigh are opposite to me at the upcoming NEC cycle show and we are a seller of Haibike/Raleigh through the London Electric Bike Company so I will ask them about dongles and report back on the forum.
KudosDave

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I learnt a long time ago not to assume anything because it makes an ass out of u and me.

One of the specific and fundamental requirements of EN15194 (4.1) is that the bike complies with EN 14764. It's even stated in the Analysis at the beginning.

While I think about it, your Panasonic hub-motors run with a 13-cell battery, which will reach 54v. How do you get round the bit where it says, "limitation of the voltage to 48v"? Chinese SGS will not certify anything with a 48v battery. Who certified your bikes?

Dave, this is so so so boring for most people, but I'm going to reply because I don't want people to think I've avoided a direct question.

Earlier you said

Colin, I think you're just stirring up hystria. A lot of your logic is unsound IMHO. You say that fitting a dongle converts your bicycle into a motorcycle because it no longer complies with the exemption offered by EN15194. Don't forget that if a dealer sells a set of lights for the bike, in most cases it will also make the bike non-compliant.

EN 14764 only applied to city / trekking bikes... mountain bikes have another EN (14766 for those interested).

What I said was that by fitting a dongle, the bicycle no longer complies with EN 15194. Do you agree with that?

I'm not sure why you made the comment about lighting... however I've not paid the £113.00 to download the full regulations because I've never needed them. But even in the summary it states: "No requirements on lighting equipment, reflectors and warning devices are specified in this European Standard, due to the existence of several different national regulations applicable in the European Countries."

So I'm not sure why you got the bit about lights making the bike non compliant. If you can point me in the direction of where you've got that, I would genuinely be interested to read it.

Regarding the voltage on the Panasonic hub.... everything I've got from Panasonic and KTM suggests its 46.8v. If you can tell me where you've got 54v from I can look into it. I'd suggest maybe PMing me on this, because we'll be boring people on here.

 

[rippedupno1]

[quote uid=10501 name="rippedupno1" post=276728]@Phill,i agree. hence my earlier question of Martin, I would love to know what the reality really was re the percentage of bikes that are actually ordered with a dongle.[/QUOTE]<br />But he could only advise on what he sells.. they are available from many other places are they not? perhaps you could start a poll.... do you. Or don't you?<br />Personally I don't. ..
Again, I agree. The reason i asked about Martin specifically is that as i understand it he is the only 'main dealer ' who supplies and fits dongles to the new bikes he supplies so he would be in a unique position to tell us what the percentage is and if that percentage is increasing. I realise that it would only be information from one dealer but as he is the only one doing it, it is all we have got.

 

[soundwave]

can you do a foi request to a private company?

 

[Kudoscycles]

Been away for a while and thought I would have a browse,, Only to find this on top of the pile..
I dont understand why a lot of these comments are very aggressive, personal and pointed directly at Martin when these dongles/Speed up devices are readily available on the internet.... Surely he is not responsible for all speed up devices sold or fitted..
I also cant see how any post sales modification cant be laid at the manufacturers door.. In the case of motor vehicles there is a thriving industry modifying diesel cars to give a massive boost in torque and power, and I have never heard of any manufacturer being taken to task for this.
Having fallen foul of an uninterested dealer, Martin helped me out when he had no need to, and I am not "one of his gang" so I feel I have to stand in his corner... That is if he has one!!
I would happily take my custom to Martins bike shop, and it would be my choice to fit, or not to fit.. surely that is the question!

Phill...the reason why we dealers are anti anyone who sells bikes outside of EN15194 is that it's an obvious selling advantage. We lose a lot of sales to the dealers,who satisfy the 'want to go faster' type customer.
We sell KTM and abide by their request to sell completely legal bikes,we compromised on Kudos by fitting a King Display,which can be modified to button push to achieve more assisted speed but the default setting when it leaves our warehouse is 15.5 mph,changing the speed is a conscious decision by the owner. The problem with dongles and S-class bikes is that they cannot be tested legally at the sellers premises,if the dealer stood back and watched an S-class or dongle equipped bike ride away,he could hardly claim he didn't know anything about the illegality,especially if he fitted the dongle on his premises....but these are small businesses,in the event of a big legal claim,they would surely go bust,leaving the customer to fight the case on his own.
I saw a nice bike at Eurobike that can be programmed 250/350 or 500 watt,also 25-40 kph speed. We may choose to sell this bike as a world bike that can be programmed to suit the laws of the country which it is used. However the bikes UK default setting from our warehouse and tested from our dealers will be 250 watt-25 kph. If the customer chooses to up the power and/or the speed then he does it with the knowledge that he is making the bike into a motorcycle and should register as such....he will be asked to sign a declaration that he is aware of that situation.
Personally I think this whole speed/power thing is against the spirit of what the pedelec was intended...I am out in Greece at the moment,getting fit by exceeding the cutoff speed by pedal power only or relaxing back at 14 mph watching the world cruise by,lovely......doing 20 miles per day on my little Kudos Secret.
ps.....just trying to lighten up this thread....at 14 mph I get to see the shapely Greek girls for longer,hehe !!!!
KudosDave