i doubt it tho will have 4 on me scooter when im 70 to plod round tesco with my wheelie bars and aero wings lol
be like this but electric
be like this but electric
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Electric Mountain Bikes: No one will buy one?!..
- Thread starter Martin@e-bikeshop
- Start date
RobF I can assure you I am no patsies and I don't have a dongle on my bike and never will and your right on one thing as he would be the last person I would buy a bike from as he needs a lesson on how to treat perspective customers.
Out of all the traders/dealers on here Martin is the only one to have an exclusive club within this forum,because if you don't buy from him he won't help you.
I haven't bought from him and he helped me out! I didn't ask.. he just offered ! Also I continue to ride undongled. I have recently bought a lightweight road bike and on odd ocasions I have peddled it to 30mph for short distances and in my opinion this is far too fast and any ideas of control at this speed are ilusional .
I have an opinion regarding the discussion going on here, but there is no point in voicing it. The subject keeps cropping up and the threads always fizzle out in the same way.
Whatever the rights or wrongs, I have to say that in my experience you are wrong with your statement. Martin did me a huge favour sorting out the Pro Connect which I'd purchased from 50 C. The motor failed after about 12000 miles and Martin supplied me with a new one at a very good price. I found him to be a straightforward and decent person to deal with.
looks like i have sold 1 of the 2016 haibikes for you martin as advised him to buy it from you other wise he has no options warranty wise as he wants a dongle end off.
and a full warranty using it so less he gets it from you he be screwed if buying from anywhere else in uk and gets a motor problem using a 3rd party dongle.
thus my original question on warranty.
and a full warranty using it so less he gets it from you he be screwed if buying from anywhere else in uk and gets a motor problem using a 3rd party dongle.
thus my original question on warranty.
martin we are still awaiting a reply on the forum. ktm bikes ,soundwave
https://www.facebook.com/electricbikecompany
he try ban me last time i did that pmsl
https://www.facebook.com/electricbikecompany
he try ban me last time i did that pmsl
You should remove the KTM name from that. I makes it read as though they have consented to the poking of Martin, which I'm certain that they won't appreciate.
The lack of a response from Martin is enough to tell me all that I need to know.
The lack of a response from Martin is enough to tell me all that I need to know.
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Agreed... I raised the question because I believe the future of eMTBs is being jeopardised, not promoted. However, Martin knows I've asked it publicly now, so I don't need to keep asking it on this thread. As you've said, the lack of reply is a clear answer in itself.
And... I should point out that with this statement Soundwave. You are only increasing the problem I'm trying to highlight.
The problem is that any dealer promoting (and very aggressively - we've had people phone the shop to check) changing pedelecs to remove the speed limit and then suggesting these are used offroad in the public forests and at trail centres is doing a disservice to the industry, to eMTB and could potentially remove access to venues and events for us all.
The fact he's the only dealer prepared to do it, should show you what a risk it is. If it wasn't a big deal others would do it. I hope you can see that.
Our stance on this isn't to sell more bikes.... we sell less because of it, and we sell out anyway. Our stance on this is because I know the value eMTB can bring to individual customers, business and the industry as a whole, and I don't want to see it ruined by one dealer.
And... I should point out that with this statement Soundwave. You are only increasing the problem I'm trying to highlight.
The warranty, doesn't bother me. Any shop can fix any bike at their own cost, its not a complicated issue - so I really don't think you need to worry about it.
The problem is that any dealer promoting (and very aggressively - we've had people phone the shop to check) changing pedelecs to remove the speed limit and then suggesting these are used offroad in the public forests and at trail centres is doing a disservice to the industry, to eMTB and could potentially remove access to venues and events for us all.
The fact he's the only dealer prepared to do it, should show you what a risk it is. If it wasn't a big deal others would do it. I hope you can see that.
Our stance on this isn't to sell more bikes.... we sell less because of it, and we sell out anyway. Our stance on this is because I know the value eMTB can bring to individual customers, business and the industry as a whole, and I don't want to see it ruined by one dealer.
Good to see altruism is alive and well in the cut throat world of cycle retailing.
The warranty on a dongled bike is a fuss about nothing.
The dongle doesn't make the generally reliable Bosch system any more likely to break.
It's quite likely Martin has never had a related claim, and is probably prepared to take the occasional one on the chin if he does.
Equally, the risk to the retailer - and the user - from a dongled bike is way over stated on here.
I see from soundwave's facebook link, Martin is taking orders for the new 500wh battery.
Fair play to the guy, he's prepared to stock the spares and accessories for Bosch bikes which most UK retailers do not.
https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/Bosch-500Wh-Performance-Battery
If you read EddiePJ’s posts above all does not seem to be as sanguine as you think. I don’t use trial centres but he does, and he also enters organised MB events; and he says that from conversations he has had with trail centre owners and event organisers all eMBs are at risk of exclusion in the near future because of the perceived risk to the owners and organisers of an accident involving a dongled bike. They fear that they would be liable since the use of dangled bikes invalidates the venue insurance.
Whether they are overreacting or not is hardly the point. They see it as risk, and they would then act accordingly with all eMB riders who use trail centres or go on organised events being the losers.
That as I see it is the main thrust of the problem from the industry standpoint which KTM is putting since it would impact on their sales directly if all eMBs were banned from such activities. As it would with eMB use in the UK generally.
Whether they are overreacting or not is hardly the point. They see it as risk, and they would then act accordingly with all eMB riders who use trail centres or go on organised events being the losers.
That as I see it is the main thrust of the problem from the industry standpoint which KTM is putting since it would impact on their sales directly if all eMBs were banned from such activities. As it would with eMB use in the UK generally.
Can you explain this please, because I'd love to know (and bear in mind I'm an end user and represent a large number of retailers) why you think the risk is over stated.
I'd argue to many on this forum, don't understand the risk and I think your statement that its over stated might suggest you don't understand it.
If you can show me why I'm overstating the risk I'll happily look again.
I think the consequences are pretty much agreed upon, so are you suggesting its just the chances of in incident happening that's being overstated?
Col,
In this thread you have spoken of 'huge liability' and, if I recall, a possible claim that could 'wipe you out as a business'.
Some others on here have posted along similar lines.
So it is a question of degree of risk.
Has anyone examined a trail centre's public liability insurance?
And what is this 'claim' of which so many speak?
Leaving aside ebikes and dongles, we can all be held responsible for our actions.
If I wipe someone out, I could be held responsible whether I am riding my push bike, my ebike or a dongled ebike.
That claim will not differ just because I am riding an ebike or a dongled one.
I am either responsible, or I am not.
Personal injury, particularly physical injury, doesn't amount to a lot of money, as many cyclists have discovered after being knocked off in a road accident.
What are the chances of seriously injuring someone else at a trail centre?
Of course, it could happen, and if you turn a promising young doctor into a vegetable the claim could be high.
But you are running that risk whatever you ride.
Riding an illegal ebike must also be a criminal offence of some description.
But I'm prepared to bet it's a summary one, so it might cost the rider a few quid in a fine, but he won't be going to prison.
Retailer responsibility is another topic.
The proof of all these puddings could be in the eating.
Instead of scaremongering, let's have some examples of riders who have been on the wrong end of a civil claim, and/or a criminal prosecution.
Let's also have some examples of retailers who have been held civilly or criminally responsible for selling an illegal ebike.
Of course, there are none of which we've heard.
Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but it is an indication of the level of risk.
You seem to think that risk is high.
The evidence - or lack of it - suggests otherwise.
You must run your business as you see fit.
But you must also respect the right of competitors to do the same.
Equally, many riders do not share your opinion of the level of risk they are running.
Your attempts to educate us are laudable, but border on the patronising.
We are just as capable of assessing the risk as you are.
Some of us choose to take the risk, others choose not to.
That's fine by me, and, you having made your point on here many times, at length, it should be fine by you.
In this thread you have spoken of 'huge liability' and, if I recall, a possible claim that could 'wipe you out as a business'.
Some others on here have posted along similar lines.
So it is a question of degree of risk.
Has anyone examined a trail centre's public liability insurance?
And what is this 'claim' of which so many speak?
Leaving aside ebikes and dongles, we can all be held responsible for our actions.
If I wipe someone out, I could be held responsible whether I am riding my push bike, my ebike or a dongled ebike.
That claim will not differ just because I am riding an ebike or a dongled one.
I am either responsible, or I am not.
Personal injury, particularly physical injury, doesn't amount to a lot of money, as many cyclists have discovered after being knocked off in a road accident.
What are the chances of seriously injuring someone else at a trail centre?
Of course, it could happen, and if you turn a promising young doctor into a vegetable the claim could be high.
But you are running that risk whatever you ride.
Riding an illegal ebike must also be a criminal offence of some description.
But I'm prepared to bet it's a summary one, so it might cost the rider a few quid in a fine, but he won't be going to prison.
Retailer responsibility is another topic.
The proof of all these puddings could be in the eating.
Instead of scaremongering, let's have some examples of riders who have been on the wrong end of a civil claim, and/or a criminal prosecution.
Let's also have some examples of retailers who have been held civilly or criminally responsible for selling an illegal ebike.
Of course, there are none of which we've heard.
Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but it is an indication of the level of risk.
You seem to think that risk is high.
The evidence - or lack of it - suggests otherwise.
You must run your business as you see fit.
But you must also respect the right of competitors to do the same.
Equally, many riders do not share your opinion of the level of risk they are running.
Your attempts to educate us are laudable, but border on the patronising.
We are just as capable of assessing the risk as you are.
Some of us choose to take the risk, others choose not to.
That's fine by me, and, you having made your point on here many times, at length, it should be fine by you.
That's a great post Rob.
I find some of the posts quite patronizing, I'm a responsible adult and I really don't see how my faster ebike is likely to be any more dangerous than any other bike on the roads.
I'd go as far as to say that I actually feel safer as I'm away from the lights quicker and able to stay ahead of the traffic on London's congested roads.
I'm also led to believe that dongled bikes are no better or faster on trails given the nature of the courses so I really can't see where this liability debate can go!
As for whether retailers ought to be selling illegally modified bikes, well I guess that's a decision for them to make. If they fall foul of the law then they'll be prosecuted accordingly and that I'm sure would be the end of that!
I'll end by saying that Martin has been nothing short of extremely helpful both during and after the sale of my bike. I guess the proof of the pudding will come if (and hopefully it won't happen) I have a problem with the bike.
Should he respond? Perhaps, but what's the point? It looks like this is an argument that would just go on and on with no resolution.
Frankly, it's all getting a bit boring now!!
I find some of the posts quite patronizing, I'm a responsible adult and I really don't see how my faster ebike is likely to be any more dangerous than any other bike on the roads.
I'd go as far as to say that I actually feel safer as I'm away from the lights quicker and able to stay ahead of the traffic on London's congested roads.
I'm also led to believe that dongled bikes are no better or faster on trails given the nature of the courses so I really can't see where this liability debate can go!
As for whether retailers ought to be selling illegally modified bikes, well I guess that's a decision for them to make. If they fall foul of the law then they'll be prosecuted accordingly and that I'm sure would be the end of that!
I'll end by saying that Martin has been nothing short of extremely helpful both during and after the sale of my bike. I guess the proof of the pudding will come if (and hopefully it won't happen) I have a problem with the bike.
Should he respond? Perhaps, but what's the point? It looks like this is an argument that would just go on and on with no resolution.
Frankly, it's all getting a bit boring now!!
all good points RobF...
However its this one, where your whole understanding falls down.
Riding an eBikes means, yes your insurance, and the bike shop who supplied you will be covered.
HOWEVER
If you'e riding a dongled one, it means should you have personal liability insurance (you probably do, through a number of possible insurance options, you might not even know about) it won't be valid. So you will personally be liable for any medical bills you or any other party involved in the incident. No insurance will cover you because you'll be riding an illegal vehicle that shouldn't be on the trails.
Also, if you're riding a bike supplied with a dongle, its not CE certified to be used a bicycle, so the business supplying it is taking a huge risk selling it to you. So you'll probably find any business that does this changes it trading name every couple of years, so that any liability on their side is minimised, this would leave the individual bearing the full cost.
Yes, the chance is small, but with the growing number of bikes being sold - its inevitable that a dongled one will be involved in an accident at a trail centre or somewhere similar soon. When it happens this could / will, result in all eBikes being banned. This is what we don't want to see, for lots of personal and business ones.
However its this one, where your whole understanding falls down.
You are not correct.
Riding an eBikes means, yes your insurance, and the bike shop who supplied you will be covered.
HOWEVER
If you'e riding a dongled one, it means should you have personal liability insurance (you probably do, through a number of possible insurance options, you might not even know about) it won't be valid. So you will personally be liable for any medical bills you or any other party involved in the incident. No insurance will cover you because you'll be riding an illegal vehicle that shouldn't be on the trails.
Also, if you're riding a bike supplied with a dongle, its not CE certified to be used a bicycle, so the business supplying it is taking a huge risk selling it to you. So you'll probably find any business that does this changes it trading name every couple of years, so that any liability on their side is minimised, this would leave the individual bearing the full cost.
Yes, the chance is small, but with the growing number of bikes being sold - its inevitable that a dongled one will be involved in an accident at a trail centre or somewhere similar soon. When it happens this could / will, result in all eBikes being banned. This is what we don't want to see, for lots of personal and business ones.
That's how I use my dongle.
As you say, easier access to over 15mph is safer in traffic.
I do have some sympathy with the legal e-mountain bikers.
There is already hostility from push mountain bikers, so (largely ill-informed) talk of dongles will only raise the temperature.
If I come across of patronising I'm sorry, but its very hard to tell someone they are wrong without sounding patronising.
Its not about being more or less dangerous.... that's totally irrelevant.
Its about them being illegal to use in the circumstances you're using them.
So yes you as an individual can take a risk, and the chances of getting caught are minimal.
But by saying this
Its not about being more or less dangerous.... that's totally irrelevant.
Its about them being illegal to use in the circumstances you're using them.
So yes you as an individual can take a risk, and the chances of getting caught are minimal.
But by saying this
Doesn't make much sense, because you clearly haven't actually looked at your liability... because its NOT about the speed. Its about the fact you're riding a moped on cycle trails, or the road without any of the legal cover you should have to be using a moped. So its ALOT more dangerous to your liability. Just go into a motorbike shop and ask them about the risks.
Col,
The reason I mentioned personal responsibility was because I was assuming any insurance would not be valid if I were riding a dongled bike.
In other words, the cost of any claim would have to be paid by me.
I look at all insurance the same way.
If any of my bikes are stolen, I like to think my insurance policy would cover it.
But if it happened, I would think: "Worse way, this could cost me the price of a replacement bike."
Same as if one of my ebikes break.
They are now out of warranty (insurance again) anyway, but if the Rose conks out tomorrow, my starting point is £500 for a new motor, but, obviously, I would hope it could be sorted for less.
It happened when the Alfine hub broke, I was prepared for a bill of a few hundred, so was pleasantly surprised when Madison fixed it for free.
I've been riding motorcycles for 30 years - I completely understand the risks!
You need to stop the generalisations - all things don't apply to all people....
Ok, so you're taking a punt, that whilst riding a bike you won't be involved in an incident that involves hospital treatment for you or anyone else involved. Do you not even have life insurance?
Thats a risky decision in itself. I'd never ride without cover, just as I'd not get in a car without third party cover.
The chances of someone's mortage company suing you because their client can't pay their mortgage because you've spooked their horse and it flipped them off breaking their back. Is a possibility with every corner you ride on a mountain bike.
And, if you can't pay, and you've bought a dongled bike, the insurance company will go after the shop that sold it to you. Check the trading standards laws on this. Because you'll have been riding a bike that isn't CE Certified, they are liable.
D
Deleted member 4366
Guest
Colin, I think you're just stirring up hystria. A lot of your logic is unsound IMHO. You say that fitting a dongle converts your bicycle into a motorcycle because it no longer complies with the exemption offered by EN15194. Don't forget that if a dealer sells a set of lights for the bike, in most cases it will also make the bike non-compliant. Does that therefore convert it into a motorcycle with all the risks you stated. There's lots of requirements of EN15194. Speed is only one of them, but so is braking, lights, EMC, frame strength and many other things that can be made non-compliant by adding an accessory.
Like it or not, dongles are available and people and using them. If it's not dongles, those people will find other ways of getting the speed they want. Rather than stirring up hystetia, it would probably be better for everyone if you kept quiet about it. I think everybody is overreacting. Let people face the consequendes of their own actions. They're all grown-ups - well most of them anyway.
Like it or not, dongles are available and people and using them. If it's not dongles, those people will find other ways of getting the speed they want. Rather than stirring up hystetia, it would probably be better for everyone if you kept quiet about it. I think everybody is overreacting. Let people face the consequendes of their own actions. They're all grown-ups - well most of them anyway.
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