Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

What if, in terms of maslow's hierarchy of needs, one prefer freedom and self actualisation to being a well fed slave? I know we all need a degree of material security, but being oppressed, not allowed to live one's life in exchange for minimum wage is not it.

We can't choose on the spot. No-one chooses to be well fed slaves, but sometimes we end up in that situation. Then we can choose to make the best of it or make things infinitely worse for ourselves. The latter choice is utter stupidity, especially when true freedom only exists in the mind so we always enjoy it.
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[Woosh]

The key to this is China ...and they are now demurring from support for Russia. They might have originally bought the Putin line , and even believed that a quick painless victory was in sight. When Putin starts calling Ukrainians Nazis, and with their history of the Japanese, that will not go down well.

it was a bit telling when Lavrov gave a press conference a couple of days ago. After BBC Steve Rozenberg asked a couple of obvious questions, it was the turn of the Chinese Xinhua. He just started his question then his microphone got turned off by his minders. Lavrov looked puzzled for a minute then moved on to another journalist.
China does business with anyone but stayed out of other people's fights.

 

[Woosh]

All privileges from being a friend of Russia.

But the USA were continuing with their ambition to surround Russia with NATO countries so used CIA agents in an operation code worded Euromaiden to destabilise the country. This was by tempting them to join the EU with promises of all the benefits that might bring. The CIA succeeded with the formation of the Ukrainian Orange Party, who despite only having the support of a quarter of the population raided parliament in a coup, seizing power.

Being pro joining the EU and NATO, that finished the Ukraine's previously excellent relations with Russia.

All entirely due to the USA,who are the real cause of today's war.

that does not equate to young Ukrainians being wrong for wanting to join the EU.

 

[flecc]

that does not equate to young Ukrainians being wrong for wanting to join the EU.

I haven't said they were wrong, I've said they are foolish.

We all know the saying about the grass on the other side of the hedge being greener. It never is, surely Brexit has taught that.

The EU that those young Ukraininans want isn't short of unhappy members now, Greece, Poland, Hungary and huge numbers in many other countries. Turkey no longer wants to be a member and the UK has left.

So far from being Utopia.
.

 

[Woosh]

So far from being Utopia.

it's still the nearest and best representation of a better world.

 

[flecc]

it's still the nearest and best representation of a better world.

Agreed, but once again, in this world we don't get to choose the circumstances we are born into. We mostly have to make the best of what we find we are in.

In my case, by the time I was old enough to appreciate what was going on, World War 2 started and we all made the best of that and what followed for a number of years until things finally got better.

I'm now even more angry about what is happening in Ukraine. The strong resistance they are putting up to to the inevitable means there will now be a redoubled assault from Russia and many more deaths and life changing injuries.

The whole of it is totally unnecessary, with common sense not a single person needed to have been hurt on either side.

Once again it's all about silly pride and that equally stupid wish for sovereignty. Ukraine could still have been enjoying the freedom, favoured status and its benefits they once had with Russia, before they foolishly listened to the Americans.
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[Woosh]

It's their choice to fight for the future of if it is not theirs then their children 's

 

[Danidl]

Agreed, but once again, in this world we don't get to choose the circumstances we are born into. We mostly have to make the best of what we find we are in.

In my case, by the time I was old enough to appreciate what was going on, World War 2 started and we all made the best of that and what followed for a number of years until things finally got better.

I'm now even more angry about what is happening in Ukraine. The strong resistance they are putting up to to the inevitable means there will now be a redoubled assault from Russia and many more deaths and life changing injuries.

The whole of it is totally unnecessary, with common sense not a single person needed to have been hurt on either side.

Once again it's all about silly pride and that equally stupid wish for sovereignty. Ukraine could still have been enjoying the freedom, favoured status and its benefits they once had with Russia, before they foolishly listened to the Americans.
.

Flecc..you must know you are currently spouting nonsense " not a single person needed to have been hurt" .. is arrant foolishness. As I said a week or so earlier , the expectations of joining NATO by Ukraine should not have been raised , but probably a EU lite arrangement would have been entertained by both sides. But the speech by Putin shows that this was naïve on my part. Using terms like NAZI and weeding them out had only one meaning. Now Putin is threatening Sweden and Finland.

When I see the hoards of young men ,and women,without any training enlisting into militias and going into the front lines probably tomorrow, I am horrified. As I was when last weekend I saw the naff images of women being shown how to use knives.. . Their amateurish antics does mean that they are cannon fodder. Moreover there is expectations of the Russians using high altitude rocket launched thermobaric weapons on these cities. ... Basically removing huge quantities of oxygen and suffocating and flaming entire districts. Because the Ukrainian authorities are signing these civilians as combatants, it gives Putin that licence.

 

[flecc]

It's their choice to fight for the future of if it is not theirs then their children 's

Fighting doesn't necessarily make a good future for anyone, it mostly fails.

Just look at what the US assisted fights for an illusory freedom did for Somalia, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and now Ukraine.

They are all far worse off than they were before, in many cases disastrously worse off.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Agreed, but once again, in this world we don't get to choose the circumstances we are born into. We mostly have to make the best of what we find we are in.

In my case, by the time I was old enough to appreciate what was going on, World War 2 started and we all made the best of that and what followed for a number of years until things finally got better.

I'm now even more angry about what is happening in Ukraine. The strong resistance they are putting up to to the inevitable means there will now be a redoubled assault from Russia and many more deaths and life changing injuries.

The whole of it is totally unnecessary, with common sense not a single person needed to have been hurt on either side.

Once again it's all about silly pride and that equally stupid wish for sovereignty. Ukraine could still have been enjoying the freedom, favoured status and its benefits they once had with

You normally talk a lot of sense and on most subjects I do greatly respect your opinion Flecc. On this case however, I think you are talking utter BS.
Ukrainians are not stupid for fighting for their freedom, it is heroic when people make the largest possible sacrifice they can in interests of a larger cause.
Without thousands doing so in our not too distant past we would certainly not have enjoyed the freedoms we have. We owe our entire way of lives to previous generations fighting for our freedoms. Freedoms you have enjoyed. Freedoms you were not given but. freedoms that were bought and paid for in human lives. To mock anyone willing to do same for their own and those of next generations is beyond crass and uncaring. You really surprise me flecc. I, m shocked in fact.
I won't be commenting any more on this subject.
I really think your comments are showing you up. I should leave it now flecc.

 

[flecc]

Flecc..you must know you are currently spouting nonsense " not a single person needed to have been hurt" .. is arrant foolishness.

Not so, your knowledge of their history seems sadly lacking. All the Ukraine had to do originally is continue to be a good friend of Russia. Or when approaching this situation, agree that under no circumstances they would join NATO. Or if neither of those, resulting in a Russian attack being imminent, refuse to fight them, publicising that fact to emphasise to the world their status of victim hood. None of those would have resulted in war injuries from opposition, the first two would never have occasioned any attack so the arrant foolishness is entirely yours.

When I see the hoards of young men ,and women,without any training enlisting into militias and going into the front lines probably tomorrow, I am horrified. As I was when last weekend I saw the naff images of women being shown how to use knives.. . Their amateurish antics does mean that they are cannon fodder. Moreover there is expectations of the Russians using high altitude rocket launched thermobaric weapons on these cities. ... Basically removing huge quantities of oxygen and suffocating and flaming entire districts. Because the Ukrainian authorities are signing these civilians as combatants, it gives Putin that licence.

All that is exactly what I am horrified about, the utter stupidity of it appalls me.

So why do you still support them fighting and needlessly dying instead of agreeing my pacifist view?

I repeat for those still not understanding, not a single Ukrainian needed to have been hurt.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Not so, your knowledge of their history seems sadly lacking. All the Ukraine had to do originally is continue to be a good friend of Russia. Or when approaching this situation, agree that under no circumstances they would join NATO. Or if neither of those, resulting in a Russian attack being imminent, refuse to fight them, publicising that fact to emphasise to the world their status of victim hood. None of those would have resulted in war injuries from opposition, the first two would never have occasioned any attack so the arrant foolishness is entirely yours.



All that is exactly what I am horrified about, the utter stupidity of it appalls me.

So why do you still support them fighting and needlessly dying instead of agreeing my pacifist view?

I repeat for those still not understanding, not a single Ukrainian needed to have been hurt.
.

I don't think anyone supports or wants them to fight. That is not the issue. They are being forced to fight by Putin. Or are you saying if Putin said same to us we should just roll over and offer him tea, oh and shoot all our MPs and high ranking civil servants.
Putin has no more right to roll into Ukraine than he has Australia. Ukraine is an Independant sovereign state. Its past history is utterly irrelevant. They held a referendum and voted 90% in favour of leaving Russia years ago. (I think 91).
It's no better than us deciding to invade France, we used to own parts of it. Macron is an idiot, let's invade and put the Great back in Britain. They, ll just offer us tea and roll over and die.
By the way. Nato is purely a distraction. Ukraine couldn't join NATO but NATO hasn't the power to say anybody can't be a member. Its an excuse for Putin to rebuild his beloved Russian Empire.

 

[flecc]

You normally talk a lot of sense and on most subjects I do greatly respect your opinion Flecc. On this case however, I think you are talking utter BS.
Ukrainians are not stupid for fighting for their freedom, it is heroic when people make the largest possible sacrifice they can in interests of a larger cause.
Without thousands doing so in our not too distant past we would certainly not have enjoyed the freedoms we have. We owe our entire way of lives to previous generations fighting for our freedoms. Freedoms you have enjoyed. Freedoms you were not given but. freedoms that were bought and paid for in human lives. To mock anyone willing to do same for their own and those of next generations is beyond crass and uncaring. You really surprise me flecc. I, m shocked in fact.
I won't be commenting any more on this subject.
I really think your comments are showing you up. I should leave it now flecc.

I answered that in the post just above yours. LINK

Your views on fighting for freedom and heroism are the stuff of the 19th century and before. They've had increasingly little relevance since the start of the 20th century.

How does one meaningfully fight a Drone? It doesn't care whether it gets hit or not so you can't upset or annoy it.

How do you fight an incontinental nuclear hypersonic ballistic missile?

The sensible way to fight for ideals in this modern world of universal communications is by example, by competing on the grounds of a superior system and lifestyle. It's what caused the USSR to collapse and which would have led to then being our friends, but for the stupidity of the USA insistance on not allowing that and interfering.

That example setting by the West is what caused China to switch from Mao Tse Tung's rigid communism into a democratic consumer society.

That is how to win now, not with weapons.
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[flecc]

They are being forced to fight by Putin.

No they are not.

They have knowingly followed a course which they knew from prior examples would lead to this. It was their choice, so they chose the course to war, probably thinking the West would support them militarily.

What a mistake that has turned out to be, but even that didn't mean they had to fight uselessly the way they have. There's nothing heroic about the stupidity of throwing bottles of petrol to oppose warplanes, missiles and tanks.
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[Zlatan]

No they are not.

.

What a ridiculous stance. Putin assembles 100k plus soldiers on your border and says accept our governance, forget self determination, forget democracy, come back and be part of Russia... Or be invaded. Then it's the Ukrainians fault for standing against the aggressor. Utter, utter rot.
Putin or Russia have no god given right to rule over anywhere except Russia, and to be fair even that could be argued against.
What happens if he does same to Latvia, Estonia or even Poland? Oh, come on in Putin. We don't really want democracy, we, d much rather be governed by a self serving gangster. Stop being ridiculous Flecc. It's not the fault of the defender defending their own country. It's the fault of the attacker, the aggressor.
Do you offer burglars cups of tea flecc? As they beat the living day lights out of you demanding your money?
Germany could annexe Austria for living room.

 

[flecc]

What a ridiculous stance. Putin assembles 100k plus soldiers on your border and says accept our governance, forget self determination, forget democracy, come back and be part of Russia... Or be invaded. Then it's the Ukrainians fault for standing against the aggressor. Utter, utter rot.
Putin or Russia have no god given right to rule over anywhere except Russia, and to be fair even that could be argued against.
What happens if he does same to Latvia, Estonia or even Poland? Oh, come on in Putin. We don't really want democracy, we, d much rather be governed by a self serving gangster. Stop being ridiculous Flecc. It's not the fault of the defender defending their own country. It's the fault of the attacker, the aggressor.
Do you offer burglars cups of tea flecc? As they beat the living day lights out of you demanding your money?
Germany could annexe Austria for living room.

No, you stop being ridiculous.

Ukraine was a free nation, founded as a country by Russia in 1917. They became free of the old USSR when that collapsed and were free of the Russian Federation later as you acknowledged, trading with the outside world and Ukrainians could and did travel freely anywhere.

But even free countries cannot threaten their neighbours, and the threat of them joining NATO and being a base for US missiles was just that real threat for Russia.

Even the USA believes that, look how they reacted when Cuba, their neighbour, got allied to Russia and was getting missiles installed. They forcefully stopped that happening and invaded Cuba, an independent country, with military force. To this day they hold onto part of Cuba.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander as the saying goes, it was ok for the USA so why is it so wrong for Russia?

Once again, all Ukraine needed to have done was remove the threat by making it impossible. Then there never would have been any invasion.
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[soundwave]

After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Ukraine held about one third of the Soviet nuclear arsenal, the third largest in the world at the time, as well as significant means of its design and production.[2] 130 UR-100N intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) with six warheads each, 46 RT-23 Molodets ICBMs with ten warheads apiece, as well as 33 heavy bombers, totaling approximately 1,700 warheads remained on Ukrainian territory.[3] Formally, these weapons were controlled by the Commonwealth of Independent States.[4] In 1994 Ukraine agreed to destroy the weapons, and to join the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT).[5][6]

i bet they got a stash somewhere but what a stupid thing to do and give up the only deterrence for Russia to never attack lol.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

No, you stop being ridiculous.

Ukraine was a free nation, founded as a country by Russia in 1917. They became free of the old USSR when that collapsed and were free of the Russian Federation later as you acknowledged, trading with the outside world and Ukrainians could and did travel freely anywhere.

But even free countries cannot threaten their neighbours, and the threat of them joining NATO and being a base for US missiles was just that real threat for Russia.

Even the USA believes that, look how they reacted when Cuba, their neighbour, got allied to Russia and was getting missiles installed. They forcefully stopped that happening and invaded Cuba, an independent country, with military force. To this day they hold onto part of Cuba.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander as the saying goes, it was ok for the USA so why is it so wrong for Russia?

Once again, all Ukraine needed to have done was remove the threat by making it impossible. Then there never would have been any invasion.
.

Perhaps that parralel (Cuba, ukraine) has a different possible meaning. Bay of pigs fiasco (abortive attempt by us to invade cuba) is a well known case study for group think in social psychology (then us govt's unscrutinised plans failed because strong leadership meant flawed assumptions went unchallenged in the planning). I think putin is blundering into all the same mistakes

 

[Zlatan]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/26/the-world-shuns-pariah-putin

In a nutshell Germany supplying stinger missiles and anti tank armaments to Ukraine, (from their own stocks, and a first for Germany since WW2) Hungary now totally supporting EU and Germany likely to back UK/EU requests to prevent Swift payments for Russia.Turkey refusing Russian frigates access to Black Sea.?? US sending another £260 million of armaments to Ukraine.

 

[flecc]

Perhaps that parralel (Cuba, ukraine) has a different possible meaning. Bay of pigs fiasco (abortive attempt by us to invade cuba) is a well known case study for group think in social psychology (then us govt's unscrutinised plans failed because strong leadership meant flawed assumptions went unchallenged in the planning). I think putin is blundering into all the same mistakes

Agreed, but entirely off the subject of the comparison.

Russia has only twice invaded an independent country since the dissolution of the USSR, both in response to threats.

The USA has made a continuous habit of invading others, killing countless thousands who have usually been no threat at all to them. They admit to 100,000 Iraqis killed, for no reason at all.

So why is that ok, but not ok for Russia to act less harshly?
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