Brexit, for once some facts.

[soundwave]

So why is that ok, but not ok for Russia?

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Agreed, but entirely off the subject of the comparison.

Russia has only twice invaded an independent country since the dissolution of the USSR, both in response to threats.

The USA has made a continuous habit of invading others, killing countless thousands who have usually been no threat at all to them.

So why is that ok, but not ok for Russia?
.

having personally marched against the Iraq war (for all the good it did), i'd never say it is or was ok. but, despite the west's blatant hypocrisy, i think you're being unfair. Sure the west backs the brutal al sissi regime in Egypt much as Russia backs Assad in Syria. and the west created sadam and the Taliban to a very large degree. however, in the here and now Russia is an authoritarian regime trying to overthrow an elected democratic government in an independent state. that - in the more or less here and now - isn't quite the same as trying to depose of sadam or gadafi (both absolutely full Tonto sociopathic autocrats). There may be much hypocrisy in the west's response, but the world cannot afford to not contain putin.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Flecc..you must know you are currently spouting nonsense " not a single person needed to have been hurt" .. is arrant foolishness. As I said a week or so earlier , the expectations of joining NATO by Ukraine should not have been raised , but probably a EU lite arrangement would have been entertained by both sides. But the speech by Putin shows that this was naïve on my part. Using terms like NAZI and weeding them out had only one meaning. Now Putin is threatening Sweden and Finland.

When I see the hoards of young men ,and women,without any training enlisting into militias and going into the front lines probably tomorrow, I am horrified. As I was when last weekend I saw the naff images of women being shown how to use knives.. . Their amateurish antics does mean that they are cannon fodder. Moreover there is expectations of the Russians using high altitude rocket launched thermobaric weapons on these cities. ... Basically removing huge quantities of oxygen and suffocating and flaming entire districts. Because the Ukrainian authorities are signing these civilians as combatants, it gives Putin that licence.

i agree, however, why shouldn't Ukraine, an independent democratic state be free to choose to join nato? were i a voter in Ukraine i'd vote for it. more so now if i were a voter in Sweden or Finland. why on earth would an independent state have to cow tow to the threats of the fascist regime next door?

 

[flecc]

i agree, however, why shouldn't Ukraine, an independent democratic state be free to choose to join nato? were i a voter in Ukraine i'd vote for it. more so now if i were a voter in Sweden or Finland. why on earth would an independent state have to cow tow to the threats of the fascist regime next door?

I've answered that, the same reason the USA removed the threat of Cuba with force. No country can threaten a near neighbour without threat of reprisal, and Ukraine being a member and missile launch pad for a specifically anti-Russian organisation like NATO was a very real threat.

One thing is for certain, the Western brain washing against Russia has certainly worked well, there's scarcely another truly independent view in this thread.

That Russia is once again an enemy of the West is well well earned and richly deserved by the West.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

I've answered that, the same reason the USA removed the threat of Cuba with force. No country can threaten a near neighbour without threat of reprisal, and Ukraine being a member and missile launch pad for a specifically anti-Russian organisation like NATO was a very real threat.

One thing is for certain, the Western brain washing against Russia has certainly worked well, there's scarcely another truly independent view in this thread.

That Russia is once again an enemy of the West is well well earned and richly deserved by the West.
.

Ukraine have not threatened Russia. presenting a potential threat to its sphere of influence, its global ambitions is an altogether different matter than threatening it. your assertion that this is the west's making is with respect perverse flecc. democracy is a very, deeply flawed way to run ourselves. we all realize it every day we wake up to brexit/boris/where we are. But its what we chose, collectively. we may learn from it. which must be better than living in the bizarre inverted madness of autocratic russia.

 

[soundwave]

I've answered that, the same reason the USA removed the threat of Cuba with force. No country can threaten a near neighbour without threat of reprisal, and Ukraine being a member and missile launch pad for a specifically anti-Russian organisation like NATO was a very real threat.

One thing is for certain, the Western brain washing against Russia has certainly worked well, there's scarcely another truly independent view in this thread.

That Russia is once again an enemy of the West is well well earned and richly deserved by the West.
.

Russia won ww2 and paid the most with life lost, and the japs did not surrender even tho 2 nukes was dropped on them and surrendered because Russia joined the war.

and tbh from what i have seen the Ukraine is kicking there ass atm lol

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Russia won ww2 and paid the most with life lost, and the japs did not surrender even tho 2 nukes was dropped on them and surrendered because Russia joined the war.

and tbh from what i have seen the Ukraine is kicking there ass atm lol

Thank god its not the full blown stalinist regime that shot its own soldiers if the retreated as at stalingrad. Saw youtube video of Russian tank refusing to fire on ukraine armoured car blocking it. Putin is asking by analogy English soldiers to invade Edinburgh and kill Scottish soldiers. Despite massive Russian indoctrination, this cannot be easy. Many Russian soldiers come from, have family in ukraine

 

[guerney]

Fevered and brimming with wrath and righteous anger, now is the time for Grammar Nazi Herr Starmer to vexatiously attack the Tories with probing kvestions about the sources of their supply of abundant Russian money, but as usual he's far too busy poring over small print; ever vigilant of typographical errors, aided in his lonely but vital effort to defend the free world by Microsoft Office 363.4 (365 being the wildly ambitious, ever remote aim).

 

[guerney]

Thank god its not the full blown stalinist regime that shot its own soldiers if the retreated as at stalingrad. Saw youtube video of Russian tank refusing to fire on ukraine armoured car blocking it. Putin is asking by analogy English soldiers to invade Edinburgh and kill Scottish soldiers. Despite massive Russian indoctrination, this cannot be easy. Many Russian soldiers come from, have family in ukraine

On the battlefield, Genghis Khan killed any of his own soldiers that didn't attack. Limiting Facefsck access won't quite have the same effect (but the very real threat of phone confiscation could [depending on age]).

 

[guerney]

Thanks to Musk we can't see extinction level event asteroids approaching anymore, but it's nice that he's made his space graffiti's other function available:

Elon Musk helps Ukraine with SpaceX’s Starlink satellites

Move came after appeal for help from vice prime minister Mykhailo Fedorov

www.independent.co.uk

 

[guerney]

All BJ needed was a good war! "Bridge To Ukraine" and "Tunnel to Kyiv" plans can't be far off...

From partygate to Putin’s war: Boris Johnson rides on a rare wave of unity

The prime minister’s stirring rhetoric on the invasion of Ukraine earns him a reprieve from his woes… for now at least

www.theguardian.com

 

[guerney]

The key to this is China ...and they are now demurring from support for Russia. They might have originally bought the Putin line , and even believed that a quick painless victory was in sight. When Putin starts calling Ukrainians Nazis, and with their history of the Japanese, that will not go down well.

China won't need much non-Russian energy:

Before Ukraine Invasion, Russia and China Cemented Economic Ties

Facing a wary United States and worried about depending on imports by sea, China is buying more energy and food from its northern neighbor.

www.nytimes.com

 

[guerney]

Let's play "Truth or Propaganda"

MI6 chief believes Vladimir Putin's war in Ukraine could be 'unwinnable'

Richard Moore says 'fascinating' theory that Russia cannot secure a wider political victory makes 'sense'

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[flecc]

which must be better than living in the bizarre inverted madness of autocratic russia.

Sadly the same ignorance that so many display in here.

Russia created post USSR autocratic Russia. It was on track to be a friendly ally of the free world, but the Americans prevented that happening due to their stupid impatience.

Russia also put Putin, an unknown junior FSB agent, into power, being responsible for three ridiculously rapid promotions to him heading the FSB, then becoming Prime Minister of Russia and then President.

I repeat, the West and the USA in particular are entirely responsible for all that has happened with the Russian Federation since the dissolution of the USSR .

If you don't know these well established facts you aren't qualified to comment.
.

 

[flecc]

Thank god its not the full blown stalinist regime that shot its own soldiers if the retreated as at stalingrad.

On the battlefield, Genghis Khan killed any of his own soldiers that didn't attack.

Both what we did in World War 1, shooting our own soldiers.
.

 

[oyster]

Thank god its not the full blown stalinist regime that shot its own soldiers if the retreated as at stalingrad.

I'm not in the least convinced that Russia wouldn't shoot retreating Russian soldiers.

Certainly, I'd believe it at the level of individuals.

 

[GLJoe]

I repeat, the West and the USA in particular are entirely responsible for all that has happened with the Russian Federation since the dissolution of the USSR .

What troubles/confuses me, is the relationship between all these people who are supposedly in charge. Do they really have such different agendas?

Take the World Economic Forum’s “Young Global Leaders” programme. Who were the 'students' in this 'school'?
It appears that Macron was. Merkel was. Trudeau was. Boris was. Putin was!! and the list goes on and on. Its a veritable who's who of world leaders.

Apparently, the founder of the WEF YGL is Klaus Schwab. Here is a quote from him:
"I have to say then I mention names like Mrs Merkel, even Vladimir Putin and so on they all have been Young Global Leaders of The World Economic Forum. But what we are really proud of now with the young generation like Prime Minister Trudeau, President of Argentina and so on, is that we penetrate the cabinets… "

Can someone explain to me what's going on here? And who exactly is this 'we' that's 'penetrating the cabinets' ??

 

[oyster]

Thanks to Musk we can't see extinction level event asteroids approaching anymore, but it's nice that he's made his space graffiti's other function available:

Elon Musk helps Ukraine with SpaceX’s Starlink satellites

Move came after appeal for help from vice prime minister Mykhailo Fedorov

www.independent.co.uk

Not at all clear what Musk has done.

I'd have thought the primary limiting factor would have been availability of devices to communicate with such satellites, rather than location of the satellites.

Ukraine needs a large shipment of appropriate devices.

And then wait to see Russian attempts at blocking...

 

[Zlatan]

Both what we did in World War 1, shooting our own soldiers.
.

What has that got to do with it... We keel hauled sailors in 18th century, but that's irrelevant too.
Russia are the aggressors, they are attempting to invade a sovereign Independant democratic state yet somehow you justify it and blame Ukrainians, USA/UK/EU for Putin's mental decision. You then go on to tell people who disagree with your barmy stance that they aren't qualified to comment.. Like you are.
And by the way events are proving you wrong already. The war in Ukraine will not be a quick fix unless Putin sees sense and withdraws.
It seems the world in almost all cases blames Russia, sees Russia as cause and that Ukrainians need help.? Where does that leave your "its their own stupid fault".

 

[guerney]

Not at all clear what Musk has done.

I'd have thought the primary limiting factor would have been availability of devices to communicate with such satellites, rather than location of the satellites.

Ukraine needs a large shipment of appropriate devices.

And then wait to see Russian attempts at blocking...

He's been switching them on over markets as they become viable, I expect Starlink Terminals will be delivered by Germans bearing Glocks (or whatever guns they intend to supply). Between them, China and Russia could block most of Starlink's satellite constellation footprint.