Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

I don't think I am missing the point of public buy-in. .. and that is yet another valuable asset the Westminster Government squandered.

Agreed.

The UK can and could enforce any level of restrictions they needed to. We in Ireland know what they can do. But they decided for mercantile reasons not to.

Not any more, they can't enforce to those degrees, times change and people change with them.

And for mercantile reasons one can equally read sensible fiscal policies, depending on one's point of view. They are the government our population democratically elected, knowing full well that party's priorities, so as a population we cannot complain about what we chose.
.

 

[flecc]

I don't agree with you at all. But you're preoccupation with ideology and your gratitude to boris forces me to draw my argument in increasingly stark colours

You're definitely losing it!

I have no ideology, the nearest I've ever got to that is markedly left wing, clearly shown by all my praise in here for Attlee's post WW2 government and its remarkable achievements. And how come you didn't notice my strongly expressed support here for Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonald against the united opposition of members? And support for Michael Foot and Tony Benn, all very left wing.

As for gratitude to Johnson and his party, haven't you noticed my repeated attacks on his appallingly deceitful, self seeking, totally untrustworthy character? And their theft of Labour's manifesto policies, plus my savage attacks on Matt Hancock

You've taken my expression of gratitude to all the governments through my life for extending my life by almost 50% and directed it to mean I praised Boris Johnson!! That's an insane distortion. The governments that have done that through my life have been Tory, Coalitions, Labour and EU and all have played a part to varying degrees in the gains.

It's your excessively biased left wing idealogy that's left you unable to accept that affluence and the standard of living it brings also extends life span and increases health. And it's been more due to past Tory policies than any others that many of us have increased our standards of living so much.
.

 

[flecc]

Isnt that ironic, coming from someone who's repeated mantra is that we should do nothing and let the public die in groves.

Another gross distortion of the truth. Which is that we should continue to do what is possible, which isn't everything, but cannot stop the public electing to die if that's what they are determined to do.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind dying in a grove, there's far less pleasant places to die.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Agreed, but as I replied to JHC, it's still the public who are by far the greatest cause of the deaths we've suffered. That is the subject we are discussing, not the health service in general. The government have done their bit on Covid as i've shown, much more than most comparable countries.

Large swathes of the public have not done their bit. One in five refusing to have the vaccines. Probably at least 1 in 20 refusing to believe Covid exists so not protecting at all and even trying to obstruct the government actions. The government didn't drive tens of thousands of people onto the packed beaches last summer, they desperately tried to stop them. Those have been the most damaging holes in our personal defences, letting the virus reach us all in our local areas, our non-conforming neighbours being our deadly enemies, not the government.

As for the health service, this is more personal to me than you, since the recent and current positions will almost certainly shorten my life, possibly substantially. Due to the endemic heart disease in my family, my mother had open heart surgery in 1974 which extended her life by 14 years. In 2011 my older brother had the same which extended his life by 9 years until something else killed him.

But I'm denied the same by the recent and current situation so at 85 now will die earlier than necessary, either before it will be my turn after the end of current waiting list or because I'm getting too old and weak for the surgery anyway.

But am I angry with government about that? No I'm not, since I recognise the money isn't infinite and choices have to be made. Giving me an option soon would mean something or someone else goes short, and that choice isn't mine. It's what we have governments for and they've done amazingly well so far. At birth my life expectancy was 57 years, yet here I am still doing well 27 years later. So I'm grateful to all the governments involved in that increase of almost a half in my life span so far.
.

The logic doesn't quite work for me.
The situation of my survival is not due to any positive action by governments, but the resistance of the NHS personnel which is remarkable considering the interference by right wing nut jobs ,trying to this into a country like the USA, where health care is only for the rich, and there are rich pickings to be made.

The coming high deathrate due to the criminal negligence to protect the public is simply trying to discredit the NHS and further the privatisation agenda.

I am grateful to the NHS, not the pond life parasites known as the Conservative Party, which any civilised country would regard as what they really are
An organised crime syndicate of con men and women, thieves and traitors to democracy.

If there was such a being as God or Gods. he/she would regards them as a modern replacement for pestilence, famine and hellfire.

 

[oldgroaner]

And it's been more due to past Tory policies than any others that many of us have increased our standards of living so much.
.

No way, that is a huge over simplification and simply way off the mark, for instance being in the EU and having to appear less rabid than they really are helped a lot, and union action saw the biggest pay rises I ever had, which was why the lunatic Thatcher came down heavily on them.

 

[flecc]

The situation of my survival is not due to any positive action by governments, but the resistance of the NHS personnel which is remarkable considering the interference by right wing nut jobs ,trying to this into a country like the USA, where health care is only for the rich, and there are rich pickings to be made.

That is obviously untrue, you haven't lived long enough. It was a government who created the NHS and it was the extreme resistance of those who eventually had to staff it first that tried so hard to stop the NHS ever coming into being, or being successful. Indeed they lost no time in bringing it to its knees financially, resulting in all the rationing and charges we see to this day.

You, Jonathan and I have one thing in common, a preference for socialist social policies, but there the similarities end. I know that the debts we are building up won't be paid by us but by todays children and tomorrows grandchildren. Thats not socialism, that's selfishness of the Boris Johnson kind, me, me and sod everyone else.

The reason I'm so aware of that is that I've retained a sense of political and economic proportion that I'm afraid you and Jonathan have lost long ago, as your OTT anti Tory rants show. The truth is that the Tories will never in the foreseeable future get rid of the NHS, and that is for two reasons:

Firstly because that would be electoral suicide.

Secondly because so many Tories benefit so much from the NHS, due to most of them not being rich.

What the Tory party will continue to do is try to limit the NHS by encouraging the private sector to get the wealthy to share the huge financial burden of health provision. That's far from being a bad thing, it's a very good thing since it grows the size of the health sector overall, something I've benefited from four times in recent years.
.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

You're suggesting that learning is part of the process. That's a bit like saying, oh I don't know, let's say for argument's sake, "I learned from voting for brexit not to vote for boris". That's evidently not how the great British electorate tick. In psychology there is a basic principle that interventions need to become more structured, directive the more acute the crisis is it is addressing. One uses tough love on recovering alcoholics. Not on patients who are in hospital with liver failure. Were facing an acute crisis, it isnt a casual chat in an aa meeting in which everyone can be left to find their own ways.

The government have made plenty of mistakes and got very little right.

This time the government is buckling due to public pressure and growing disobedience in terms of following advice. If people are determined not to wear a face mask, determined to socialise in very close proximity to large numbers of people and determined not to receive a vaccination, there ain’t a lot you can do.

From what I’ve seen, people who have had a ride on a ventilator, lost a spouse, mother, father, brother or sister suddenly seem to take the game more seriously. Sadly, this will be how the lessons will be delivered in future. The blackboard & chalk method has failed completely. No one wants to listen.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

You're definitely losing it!

I have no ideology, the nearest I've ever got to that is markedly left wing, clearly shown by all my praise in here for Attlee's post WW2 government and its remarkable achievements. And how come you didn't notice my strongly expressed support here for Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonald against the united opposition of members? And support for Michael Foot and Tony Benn, all very left wing.

As for gratitude to Johnson and his party, haven't you noticed my repeated attacks on his appallingly deceitful, self seeking, totally untrustworthy character? And their theft of Labour's manifesto policies, plus my savage attacks on Matt Hancock

You've taken my expression of gratitude to all the governments through my life for extending my life by almost 50% and directed it to mean I praised Boris Johnson!! That's an insane distortion. The governments that have done that through my life have been Tory, Coalitions, Labour and EU and all have played a part to varying degrees in the gains.

It's your excessively biased left wing idealogy that's left you unable to accept that affluence and the standard of living it brings also extends life span and increases health. And it's been more due to past Tory policies than any others that many of us have increased our standards of living so much.
.

I disagree. He’s not losing it, he actually lost it a long time ago.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

We’ve done it people. Nearly 52K new infections today, and they said it would take us until 19/07 to reach 50K. Hospitalisation is racing towards 1000 / too, but that figure is 4 days old when we had about 30K / day new infections. We could be well past 1000 going into hospital / day by now.

Can anyone rationalise why “Freedom Day” is still scheduled for Monday and it’s still being promoted as the day we abandon all Covid safety measures?

This is going to be the mother of all catastrophes. There can not be any other outcome. I predict a vaccine resistant strain by the end of summer. It’s like Snakes & Ladders, we’ve just landed on that snake on number 98 which takes you back to number 3.

 

[flecc]

No way, that is a huge over simplification and simply way off the mark, for instance being in the EU and having to appear less rabid than they really are helped a lot, and union action saw the biggest pay rises I ever had, which was why the lunatic Thatcher came down heavily on them.

I'm afraid that's your over simplification. I've never had any unionised employment, certainly not during my largest rises in salaries.

And lunatic though Thatcher was, her policies of wider home ownership and shareholdings were more instrumental in spreading affluence more widely than anything a labour government ever did. They all made us poorer, albeit sometimes in a good cause.
.

 

[flecc]

Can anyone rationalise why “Freedom Day” is still scheduled for Monday and it’s still being promoted as the day we abandon all Covid safety measures?

I can't, but I think they are fighting an impossible battle against unfair odds:

I just received an email from The Towel Shop titled "Sea you at the beach" (sic).

And when I turn on the TV there's TUI and others showing happy families frolicking on exotic sunny beaches.

So which is going to appeal to the public, government restraining advice or the promotions of those companies? Clearly the odds are against commonsense prevailing, especially as the school holidays approach and kids pester power gets to work.
.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

I can't, but I think they are fighting an impossible battle against unfair odds:

I just received an email from The Towel Shop titled "Sea you at the beach" (sic).

And when I turn on the TV there's TUI and others showing happy families frolicking on exotic sunny beaches.

So which is going to appeal to the public, government restraining advice or the promotions of those companies? Clearly the odds are against commonsense prevailing, especially as the school holidays approach and kids pester power gets to work.
.

All you can do is stand back and watch what is about to happen with feelings of horror and sadness.

Do you remember Ryan Air’s “Jab & Go” advert? That was banned, but they do enormous damage.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

You're definitely losing it!

I have no ideology, the nearest I've ever got to that is markedly left wing, clearly shown by all my praise in here for Attlee's post WW2 government and its remarkable achievements. And how come you didn't notice my strongly expressed support here for Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonald against the united opposition of members? And support for Michael Foot and Tony Benn, all very left wing.

As for gratitude to Johnson and his party, haven't you noticed my repeated attacks on his appallingly deceitful, self seeking, totally untrustworthy character? And their theft of Labour's manifesto policies, plus my savage attacks on Matt Hancock

You've taken my expression of gratitude to all the governments through my life for extending my life by almost 50% and directed it to mean I praised Boris Johnson!! That's an insane distortion. The governments that have done that through my life have been Tory, Coalitions, Labour and EU and all have played a part to varying degrees in the gains.

It's your excessively biased left wing idealogy that's left you unable to accept that affluence and the standard of living it brings also extends life span and increases health. And it's been more due to past Tory policies than any others that many of us have increased our standards of living so much.
.

Where do I start. Successive governments have wreaked havoc with this country's wealth, resources. Wasting it on foreign wars. You inhabit an odd parallel universe in which thatchers deregulation of financial services and catastrophic damage of the 08 crisis (and transfer of a massive fraudulent national debt burden onto the shoulders of future generations via low interest rates and hugely over inflated property prices doesnt matter.
I'm afraid there isny any reasonable way to argue with this level of delusional thinking. But I will say that I can see how thinking it reasonable to abandon fellow citizens to their lot fits with it.

 

[oyster]

They have now shelved updating the Covid-19 app.

It should have been under permanent review and not suddenly need significant fixing.

 

[Danidl]

I can't, but I think they are fighting an impossible battle against unfair odds:

I just received an email from The Towel Shop titled "Sea you at the beach" (sic).

And when I turn on the TV there's TUI and others showing happy families frolicking on exotic sunny beaches.

So which is going to appeal to the public, government restraining advice or the promotions of those companies? Clearly the odds are against commonsense prevailing, especially as the school holidays approach and kids pester power gets to work.
.

Flecc.. I think you are on a hiding to nothing here. Our Government, with more dependency on support from minority parties, They have continually modified the opening date for indoor dining delaying it week by week for a while now, and reducing the types of people allowed. Of course there is whining from the vitners , but the Government has the people on side.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

They have now shelved updating the Covid-19 app.

It should have been under permanent review and not suddenly need significant fixing.

That App should be shelved up Dido Harding’s chuff. Third rack on the left, just past the entrance.

I’ve tried to do the right thing, but now I’ve taken it off my phone. It’s a complete waste of time, effort and money.

 

[flecc]

Where do I start. Successive governments have wreaked havoc with this country's wealth, resources. Wasting it on foreign wars.

Don't attribute blame to me on those, I've argued exactly the same in this forum, and both main parties are as much to blame.

You inhabit an odd parallel universe in which thatchers deregulation of financial services and catastrophic damage of the 08 crisis (and transfer of a massive fraudulent national debt burden onto the shoulders of future generations via low interest rates and hugely over inflated property prices doesnt matter.

More completely false allegations against me and my true clearly expressed views. As for transferring a huge burden to the future, you might consider Blair's PFI as a major cause, supposedly in Labour's name. I have never voted for Thatcher or Blair nor ever would, so stop the false blame game.

You clearly have a huge disagreement with all our governments. Just like the rest of our 67 millions, but most of them retain a sense of proportion.
.

 

[flecc]

Flecc.. I think you are on a hiding to nothing here. Our Government, with more dependency on support from minority parties, They have continually modified the opening date for indoor dining delaying it week by week for a while now, and reducing the types of people allowed. Of course there is whining from the vitners , but the Government has the people on side.

I can't and wouldn't comment on your situation, but I do know ours extremely well. Our government don't have th people sufficiently on side. It is not possible for our government to control beyond an insufficient level to deal with Covid. We've already proved that, and not just in connection with Covid. The discipline in our society has become increasingly frail over six decades and that is so rooted now that there's no going back, short of a major upheaval like another world war or a government starving the population into submission. Force can't work, we've no-one to apply it, and anyway it's failed when it's been tried.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

I disagree. He’s not losing it, he actually lost it a long time ago.

Well I'm not flecc's fluffer, and I didn't vote for brexit or boris. Need I say more?

 

[oldgroaner]

That is obviously untrue, you haven't lived long enough. It was a government who created the NHS and it was the extreme resistance of those who eventually had to staff it first that tried so hard to stop the NHS ever coming into being, or being successful. Indeed they lost no time in bringing it to its knees financially, resulting in all the rationing and charges we see to this day.

You, Jonathan and I have one thing in common, a preference for socialist social policies, but there the similarities end. I know that the debts we are building up won't be paid by us but by todays children and tomorrows grandchildren. Thats not socialism, that's selfishness of the Boris Johnson kind, me, me and sod everyone else.

The reason I'm so aware of that is that I've retained a sense of political and economic proportion that I'm afraid you and Jonathan have lost long ago, as your OTT anti Tory rants show. The truth is that the Tories will never in the foreseeable future get rid of the NHS, and that is for two reasons:

Firstly because that would be electoral suicide.

Secondly because so many Tories benefit so much from the NHS, due to most of them not being rich.

What the Tory party will continue to do is try to limit the NHS by encouraging the private sector to get the wealthy to share the huge financial burden of health provision. That's far from being a bad thing, it's a very good thing since it grows the size of the health sector overall, something I've benefited from four times in recent years.
.

My so called OTT rants are simply seeing what is really going on without any illusions, these Tory politicians are simply parasites on the public, when they are not killing them off with unhinged decisions.
Having money should not decide who lives through purchase of medical help or dies through being unable to afford to get it
As to this
" I know that the debts we are building up won't be paid by us but by todays children and tomorrows grandchildren."
And who are behind these huge debts?
Tory or neo Tory Governments of course
As to not being alive long enough, that made me smile 77 years is more than enough time to see though the mirage of capitalist and other right wing crank theories, or would a further eight years induce an Epiphany and magically confer the blessing of erudition on me, and my Blood run Blue?
Sounds reminiscent of Brexit promises, and of course no matter how big the debt becomes somehow we always find ways to make it worse, and I'm confident todays children and grandchildren will make an even bigger balls of it with the power of computers available for them to play with.
The irony is they will blame our generation even though in fact the fault is really with this archaic parliamentary structure where morally bankrupt blaggards become lords and as Mp's are referred to as "Right Honourable" when that's the very last thing you could ever call them, and can't call each other out as liars yet feel free to do so with every sentence uttered that has operated for years, not on a written constitution, but the "Pirate's Code"
There. a good old fashioned rant for you to savour