Brexit, for once some facts.

[oyster]

Yes, those cases are very disturbing indeed and I feel for those workers who will be forced to face large numbers of the public after Johnson’s mask burning day on Monday. Those workers have been betrayed and badly let down by this government.

However, even more cases of Covid will develop due to the antics of Mr Fireworks up the Arse Hole man an Mr Poo in a Burger Box on a Beach (whilst on furlough) Man. I’m afraid this is what the British public is like. These idiots will be going over the top to the sound of Boris’s whistle at dawn on Monday. As they advance on the Covid guidelines, determined to defeat them, many will fall. They’ve been warned, but sometimes you’ve gotta learn the hard way. This is one such occasion.

We did see cases rises a little while back (something like 225 active as against 25 a couple of weeks earlier), but (amazingly) now:

Cases in Pembrokeshire

A confirmed case is someone who has tested positive for coronavirus.

9 new people had a confirmed positive test result reported on 15 July 2021.

Between 9 July 2021 and 15 July 2021, 66 people had a confirmed positive test result. This shows a decrease of -19.5% compared to the previous 7 days.

The low population density, fresh air, much spending of time outdoors, few opportunities for crowding indoors, all probably contribute. Despite tourists in considerable numbers.

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes, those cases are very disturbing indeed and I feel for those workers who will be forced to face large numbers of the public after Johnson’s mask burning day on Monday. Those workers have been betrayed and badly let down by this government.

However, even more cases of Covid will develop due to the antics of Mr Fireworks up the Arse Hole man and Mr Poo in a Burger Box on a Beach (whilst on furlough) man. I’m afraid this is what the British public is like. These idiots will be going over the top to the sound of Boris’s whistle at dawn on Monday. As they advance on the Covid guidelines, determined to defeat them, many will fall. They’ve been warned, but sometimes you’ve gotta learn the hard way. This is one such occasion.

Unfortunately since they didn't learn the last time, there is zero probability that they will this time.
As the old saying goes for the majority of people

"The only thing they learn from experience
is that they never learn from experience."

 

[flecc]

As the old saying goes for the majority of people

"The only thing they learn from experience
is that they never learn from experience."

Indeed, that's a variation of my adage on those who claim such as 20 years experience of something.

It's often just 1 years experience repeated 20 times over.
.

 

[flecc]

I totally agree with most of that, but leadership and clarity has been very poor. Lack of leadership will have caused many unnecessary deaths, but by no means all of them.

True, our leaders have been very poor.. But I still believe the vast majority of the deaths could have been avoided by the public had they just followed the basic advice, accepted the vaccines and not treated Covid as little to worry about.

After all, almost all of us discussing this here have avoided catching it, so it's not that difficult.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Here is one of the Greased Piglet's best speeches on "levelling up"

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-prime-ministers-levelling-up-speech-15-july-2021


Clearly the roomful of theoretical monkeys reputed to be tasked to rewriting the works of Shakespeare have been recruited (no doubt bribed with a staggering weight of bananas)
And tasked with replacing the words of gone (and not lamented) Cummings

 

[jonathan.agnew]

That's a typical Welfare State answer.

None of the responsibility lies with individuals, the state must provide for everything, even all the actions on Covid.

The truth is that the state has done everything it can, some things less well, others very well. It's spent immense sums to help people to practice social separation, paying them to do it by keeping them off work. It's provided a wide range of vaccines on an epic scale. It's given all the advice possible to assist people to protect themselves.

Now how have these hard done by citizens of yours behaved? Large numbers of those paid to stay away from work have instead of staying home, socialised with numbers of others, including crowding onto beaches or at sports events. Some 19% of them of 50 years and over have not accepted the vaccines. A substantial number deny Covid even exists and often don't mask where they should. They even organise large marches and demonstrations protesting against the help the government is giving and campaign against the government's Covid help online.

But you think none of the poor outcomes we've had are their fault !!
.

Not really. This, isnt ideological for me. Take a look at what's happening in south africa at present. That's what one get when one combine inequality, deprivation (lack of social, health care) with a crisis like covid that strip away the veneer of society. Next slide please say in the bbc news this am hospital admissions will get scary. Indeed they will. Then health care will become severely rationed. Furlough, as a result of boris' mismanagement will at some point become unsustainable during complete lockdowns (which we will have again). This is not a road we should be going down

 

[flecc]

Here is one of the Greased Piglet's best speeches on "levelling up"

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-prime-ministers-levelling-up-speech-15-july-2021


Clearly the roomful of theoretical monkeys reputed to be tasked to rewriting the works of Shakespeare have been recruited (no doubt bribed with a staggering weight of bananas)
And tasked with replacing the words of gone (and not lamented) Cummings

I love this extract from his speech:

"I remember going to former East Germany in 1990, just after the wall had gone down, and I remember being amazed at how far behind west Germany it then was a place of strange little cars with two stroke engines and fake coffee and yet we must be honest with ourselves – to a large extent Germany has succeeded in levelling up where we have not"

High praise for how rapidly East Germany progressed once within the EU, and calling into question why he took us out of the EU.
.

 

[flecc]

Not really. This, isnt ideological for me. Take a look at what's happening in south africa at present. That's what one get when one combine inequality, deprivation (lack of social, health care) with a crisis like covid that strip away the veneer of society. Next slide please say in the bbc news this am hospital admissions will get scary. Indeed they will. Then health care will become severely rationed. Furlough, as a result of boris' mismanagement will at some point become unsustainable during complete lockdowns (which we will have again). This is not a road we should be going down

Agreed, but as I replied to JHC, it's still the public who are by far the greatest cause of the deaths we've suffered. That is the subject we are discussing, not the health service in general. The government have done their bit on Covid as i've shown, much more than most comparable countries.

Large swathes of the public have not done their bit. One in five refusing to have the vaccines. Probably at least 1 in 20 refusing to believe Covid exists so not protecting at all and even trying to obstruct the government actions. The government didn't drive tens of thousands of people onto the packed beaches last summer, they desperately tried to stop them. Those have been the most damaging holes in our personal defences, letting the virus reach us all in our local areas, our non-conforming neighbours being our deadly enemies, not the government.

As for the health service, this is more personal to me than you, since the recent and current positions will almost certainly shorten my life, possibly substantially. Due to the endemic heart disease in my family, my mother had open heart surgery in 1974 which extended her life by 14 years. In 2011 my older brother had the same which extended his life by 9 years until something else killed him.

But I'm denied the same by the recent and current situation so at 85 now will die earlier than necessary, either before it will be my turn after the end of current waiting list or because I'm getting too old and weak for the surgery anyway.

But am I angry with government about that? No I'm not, since I recognise the money isn't infinite and choices have to be made. Giving me an option soon would mean something or someone else goes short, and that choice isn't mine. It's what we have governments for and they've done amazingly well so far. At birth my life expectancy was 57 years, yet here I am still doing well 27 years later. So I'm grateful to all the governments involved in that increase of almost a half in my life span so far.
.

 

[oyster]

Here is one of the Greased Piglet's best speeches on "levelling up"

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/the-prime-ministers-levelling-up-speech-15-july-2021


Clearly the roomful of theoretical monkeys reputed to be tasked to rewriting the works of Shakespeare have been recruited (no doubt bribed with a staggering weight of bananas)
And tasked with replacing the words of gone (and not lamented) Cummings

His idiocy would commence a policy of levelling up when standing at the top of Yr Wyddfa.

 

[oyster]

I love this extract from his speech:

"I remember going to former East Germany in 1990, just after the wall had gone down, and I remember being amazed at how far behind west Germany it then was a place of strange little cars with two stroke engines and fake coffee and yet we must be honest with ourselves – to a large extent Germany has succeeded in levelling up where we have not"

High praise for how rapidly East Germany progressed once within the EU, and calling into question why he took us out of the EU.
.

I didn't know Trabants had fake coffee.

And we need to understand that technically their two-strokehood wasn't entirely the issue. There have been many two-stroke engines which were very much cleaner than Tranbant engines.

 

[Danidl]

Agreed, but as I replied to JHC, it's still the public who are by far the greatest cause of the deaths we've suffered. That is the subject we are discussing, not the health service in general. The government have done their bit on Covid as i've shown, much more than most comparable countries.

Large swathes of the public have not done their bit. One in five refusing to have the vaccines. Probably at least 1 in 20 refusing to believe Covid exists so not protecting at all and even trying to obstruct the government actions. The government didn't drive tens of thousands of people onto the packed beaches last summer, they desperately tried to stop them. Those have been the most damaging holes in our personal defences, letting the virus reach us all in our local areas, our non-conforming neighbours being our deadly enemies, not the government.

As for the health service, this is more personal to me than you, since the recent and current positions will almost certainly shorten my life, possibly substantially. Due to the endemic heart disease in my family, my mother had open heart surgery in 1974 which extended her life by 14 years. In 2011 my older brother had the same which extended his life by 9 years until something else killed him.

But I'm denied the same by the recent and current situation so at 85 now will die earlier than necessary, either before it will be my turn after the end of current waiting list or because I'm getting too old and weak for the surgery anyway.

But am I angry with government about that? No I'm not, since I recognise the money isn't infinite and choices have to be made. Giving me an option soon would mean something or someone else goes short, and that choice isn't mine. It's what we have governments for and they've done amazingly well so far. At birth my life expectancy was 57 years, yet here I am still doing well 27 years later. So I'm grateful to all the governments involved in that increase of almost a half in my life span so far.
.

"The government have done their bit on Covid as i've shown, much more than most comparable countries..". That unfortunately is blatant hyperbole. The only thing they did correctly was to accelerate the vaccine programme, and then blew it by giving the second doses to late.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Agreed, but as I replied to JHC, it's still the public who are by far the greatest cause of the deaths we've suffered. That is the subject we are discussing, not the health service in general. The government have done their bit on Covid as i've shown, much more than most comparable countries.

Large swathes of the public have not done their bit. One in five refusing to have the vaccines. Probably at least 1 in 20 refusing to believe Covid exists so not protecting at all and even trying to obstruct the government actions. The government didn't drive tens of thousands of people onto the packed beaches last summer, they desperately tried to stop them. Those have been the most damaging holes in our personal defences, letting the virus reach us all in our local areas, our non-conforming neighbours being our deadly enemies, not the government.

As for the health service, this is more personal to me than you, since the recent and current positions will almost certainly shorten my life, possibly substantially. Due to the endemic heart disease in my family, my mother had open heart surgery in 1974 which extended her life by 14 years. In 2011 my older brother had the same which extended his life by 9 years until something else killed him.

But I'm denied the same by the recent and current situation so at 85 now will die earlier than necessary, either before it will be my turn after the end of current waiting list or because I'm getting too old and weak for the surgery anyway.

But am I angry with government about that? No I'm not, since I recognise the money isn't infinite and choices have to be made. Giving me an option soon would mean something or someone else goes short, and that choice isn't mine. It's what we have governments for and they've done amazingly well so far. At birth my life expectancy was 57 years, yet here I am still doing well 27 years later. So I'm grateful to all the governments involved in that increase of almost a half in my life span so far.
.

I don't quite share your gratitude to (especially this) government. But that's not my point. I'm being pragmatic. My point is that you're suggesting the 18 million amoebas that voted for boris (and their spawn and knuckledragging friends, uncles and abusive grandfathers) will learn from the deaths, lack of health and social care, loss of employment, desperation. As if they're a stoic commune of transcendent Buddhists embracing a meaningful next step on the grand highway. I don't think so. I think they will defecate, spectacularly, in much bigger boxes, and not only on beaches.

 

[flecc]

"The government have done their bit on Covid as i've shown, much more than most comparable countries..". That unfortunately is blatant hyperbole. The only thing they did correctly was to accelerate the vaccine programme, and then blew it by giving the second doses to late.

After the initial mistakes, which are history now, they did the most important things, giving the right advice, opening emergency facilities and accelerating the vaccine program.

To an extent they inadvisedly eased restrictions too early a couple of times and are in danger of doing the same again now, but each time it's been under huge public pressure and increasing public disobedence to do so. In a democracy they have no option but to concede to some extent if they don't want an unmanageable breakdown of order.

With the second vaccine delay it was a matter for judgement, balancing the protective gain of many more first jabs against the disadvantages. I agree with you that they probably made the wrong call, but it was theirs to make and they were supported by our medical experts.

However you have totally missed the point being made, that it's been public behaviour that has been the major cause of our excessive deaths. The government have indeed made some mistaken contributions, but those far exceeded by the positive things they've done.

All of our western governments have made many mistakes, often every bit as bad as ours and many are now playing catchup with us now on some aspects, so I think a sense of proportion is called for in judging the issue.
.

 

[flecc]

I don't quite share your gratitude to (especially this) government. But that's not my point. I'm being pragmatic. My point is that you're suggesting the 18 million amoebas that voted for boris (and their spawn and knuckledragging friends, uncles and abusive grandfathers) will learn from the deaths, lack of health and social care, loss of employment, desperation. As if they're a stoic commune of transcendent Buddhists embracing a meaningful next step on the grand highway. I don't think so. I think they will defecate, spectacularly, in much bigger boxes, and not only on beaches.

Thank you for agreeing with me that it's been the public (amoebas) who are the major cause of Covid spread and resultant deaths.

However I have to disagree that there isn't an level at whch they will change their behaviour. Where that level is I cannot know, but it does exist. Maybe the death of someone they vaguely know. Maybe the death of a neighbour. Maybe the death of their spouse or child.

In other words there is a point of enough deaths that will prompt them to change, and that is in their hands, democratic government cannot determine that.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Yes, those cases are very disturbing indeed and I feel for those workers who will be forced to face large numbers of the public after Johnson’s mask burning day on Monday. Those workers have been betrayed and badly let down by this government.

However, even more cases of Covid will develop due to the antics of Mr Fireworks up the Arse Hole man and Mr Poo in a Burger Box on a Beach (whilst on furlough) man. I’m afraid this is what the British public is like. These idiots will be going over the top to the sound of Boris’s whistle at dawn on Monday. As they advance on the Covid guidelines, determined to defeat them, many will fall. They’ve been warned, but sometimes you’ve gotta learn the hard way. This is one such occasion.

You're suggesting that learning is part of the process. That's a bit like saying, oh I don't know, let's say for argument's sake, "I learned from voting for brexit not to vote for boris". That's evidently not how the great British electorate tick. In psychology there is a basic principle that interventions need to become more structured, directive the more acute the crisis is it is addressing. One uses tough love on recovering alcoholics. Not on patients who are in hospital with liver failure. Were facing an acute crisis, it isnt a casual chat in an aa meeting in which everyone can be left to find their own ways.

 

[flecc]

You're suggesting that learning is part of the process. That's a bit like saying, oh I don't know, let's say for argument's sake, "I learned from voting for brexit not to vote for boris". That's evidently not how the great British electorate tick. In psychology there is a basic principle that interventions need to become more structured, directive the more acute the crisis is it is addressing. One uses tough love on recovering alcoholics. Not on patients who are in hospital with liver failure. Were facing an acute crisis, it isnt a casual chat in an aa meeting in which everyone can be left to find their own ways.

One again, all criticism and no answers. All the intervention directives possible have been tried, sometimes in excess of what's possible, and they've achieved what was possible.

But thats not been enough, so as I keep repeating, only the public have the one remaining answer. Unless a true vaccine arrives in time, ultimately it's change or die and that's their choice for all of us.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

I love this extract from his speech:

"I remember going to former East Germany in 1990, just after the wall had gone down, and I remember being amazed at how far behind west Germany it then was a place of strange little cars with two stroke engines and fake coffee and yet we must be honest with ourselves – to a large extent Germany has succeeded in levelling up where we have not"

High praise for how rapidly East Germany progressed once within the EU, and calling into question why he took us out of the EU.
.

Ignoring the reality of how long the Tory party has been in power and this is their failure too

 

[Danidl]

After the initial mistakes, which are history now, they did the most important things, giving the right advice, opening emergency facilities and accelerating the vaccine program.

To an extent they inadvisedly eased restrictions too early a couple of times and are in danger of doing the same again now, but each time it's been under huge public pressure and increasing public disobedence to do so. In a democracy they have no option but to concede to some extent if they don't want an unmanageable breakdown of order.

With the second vaccine delay it was a matter for judgement, balancing the protective gain of many more first jabs against the disadvantages. I agree with you that they probably made the wrong call, but it was theirs to make and they were supported by our medical experts.

However you have totally missed the point being made, that it's been public behaviour that has been the major cause of our excessive deaths. The government have indeed made some mistaken contributions, but those far exceeded by the positive things they've done.

All of our western governments have made many mistakes, often every bit as bad as ours and many are now playing catchup with us now on some aspects, so I think a sense of proportion is called for in judging the issue.
.

I don't think I am missing the point of public buy-in. .. and that is yet another valuable asset the Westminster Government squandered. The UK can and could enforce any level of restrictions they needed to. We in Ireland know what they can do. But they decided for mercantile reasons not to.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Thank you for agreeing with me that it's been the public (amoebas) who are the major cause of Covid spread and resultant deaths.

However I have to disagree that there isn't an level at whch they will change their behaviour. Where that level is I cannot know, but it does exist. Maybe the death of someone they vaguely know. Maybe the death of a neighbour. Maybe the death of their spouse or child.

In other words there is a point of enough deaths that will prompt them to change, and that is in their hands, democratic government cannot determine that.
.

I don't agree with you at all. But you're preoccupation with ideology and your gratitude to boris forces me to draw my argument in increasingly stark colours

 

[jonathan.agnew]

One again, all criticism and no answers. All the intervention directives possible have been tried, sometimes in excess of what's possible, and they've achieved what was possible.

But thats not been enough, so as I keep repeating, only the public have the one remaining answer. Unless a true vaccine arrives in time, ultimately it's change or die and that's their choice for all of us.
.

Isnt that ironic, coming from someone who's repeated mantra is that we should do nothing and let the public die in groves.