Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

OJ,.. fine what you wanted was clear, what were you prepared to give up to achieve it was not.
The most blatant lie was the mantra "take back control" .. . It was is as meaningless or meaningful as " Make America great Again".
Even the fact that the EU did not stop,or attempt to stop ,or is even interfering in the UKs referendum and debates remains proof of that. What the EU has done however is ensure that the UK would not "take back "control of other countries,. The continued attempts to bully Ireland over the last year by senior politicans,will not be viewed as your finest hour.
Now your sentence about blood on the streets ,would in any court be viewed not as a prediction,but as an obvious threat.

I disagree.
taking back control is the most achievable.
Just handover brexit to parliament.

The rest is a lot trickier.
Control of our money: that's clear, brexit is expensive for the many (not the few billionaires who bankrolled the campaign)
Control of our border: that's also clear, we can't police NI border nor put up more coastguards
Have our own trade policy: that's also clear, we will have a huge backlog to rollover before any new deal, and that's only half of the story: virtually every country on the opposite side wants new concessions before any rollover.

 

[oldgroaner]

The full article stated clearly that Sony were moving its HQ to Holland but staff and business function would not be moved and there would be no job losses. You stopped writing at moving to Holland which is disingenuous of you, you should have put the story in full context.

In an earlier post you ask where I think the money will go. By that, I assume you mean the Sony tax revenue? This is perverse and hypocritical beyond words. You are a severe critic of the U.K. allowing big business to get away with paying unfairly small amounts of tax. The U.K. Chancellor Philip Hammond is trying to tackle that and it is why Sony has made the administrative move to Holland, to pay less tax because the EU allows it. Now criticise them. You won’t will you, because you hate the UK. Luxembourg is another cosy tax haven. Criticise them whilst you are at it. At least whilst the U.K. jobs are here, Sony employee taxes and NI will flow into the treasury and their wages into our economy. So not as bad as you would have us believe. That is why I compared you to Gove and Johnson, you serve up the same $h!t but in a different bucket.

For the good of everyone, we need to stop taking a one sided blinkered view and look at the whole picture, good and bad, and decide what works best for all.

I have looked at the whole picture
It hasn't changed, right from the start remaining in the EU as a active member not a bunch of saboteurs was the odvious way to go.
The Sony business shows how little you seem able to absorb the obvious declne on the attactions to companies to remain here, they are so obviously running down their local operation.

 

[50Hertz]

It isn't a bad choice, it was the only logical choice from day one if you gave it a moment's thought.
But well done for seeing the obvious at last.
Even if it too late!

It isn't an obvious choice at all. Take those houses I had built. I obtain quotations for ground works, brick laying, electrical work, plumbing, roofing, joinery, plastering, decorating, the list of trades goes on. I use mainly Polish tradesmen, they are reliable, trustworthy and work to a satisfactory standard and they are cheap. They are in oversupply and have driven down hourly rates to an incredibly low level, truly astonishing. That suits me perfectly, but look at it from the point of view of the local tradesmen who grew up in that area, trained with local companies and earned a modest wage to live a lifestyle which suited them. To be perfectly honest, the hourly rate now is not worth getting out of bed for, it's been driven through the floor. How do they feel about free movement and all that it has brought them?

This is not the fault of the Polish tradesmen, The EU has provided them with a mechanism to enhance their livelihoods and they have take up that opportunity. Who could blame them, I'd do the same. Danidl's suggestion has merit, we need to get stuck into the EU with some credible representatives from the UK and make these issues known and try to bring about change.

So it is a complex choice, not easy as you suggest. It is only easy if you are a blinkered single minded, stubborn and cantankerous sort of person, set in your ways and absolutely adamant that you will not see it from any other person's point of view. I can see now that the choice is so complex, that it should never have been put to the public to decide. Leave or stay has so many different implications for so many different people that it is wrong for the public to decide. However, we are where we are and now that the Referendum route has been taken, I believe a second one is the only way froward. To snatch it away at this stage would be dangerous.

 

[50Hertz]

I have looked at the whole picture
It hasn't changed, right from the start remaining in the EU as a active member not a bunch of saboteurs was the odvious way to go.
The Sony business shows how little you seem able to absorb the obvious declne on the attactions to companies to remain here, they are so obviously running down their local operation.

Face it. They have made the administrative move to Holland because they can get away with paying less tax there. It's like a tax haven for them, you know, the tax havens you criticise. The UK are trying to do something about the unfair levels of tax these companies pay and Sony don't like it, so they have gone.

There must be something they like because they are leaving all the jobs here in the UK.

 

[Danidl]

I disagree.
taking back control is the most achievable.
Just handover brexit to parliament.

The rest is a lot trickier.
Control of our money: that's clear, brexit is expensive for the many (not the few billionaires who bankrolled the campaign)
Control of our border: that's also clear, we can't police NI border nor put up more coastguards
Have our own trade policy: that's also clear, we will have a huge backlog to rollover before any new deal, and that's only half of the story: virtually every country on the opposite side wants new concessions before any rollover.

To take back something, it had to have been given away previously. Control was never given away. Every EU treaty refers to the sovereign status of the UK as it does to the similar staus of Holland, Sweden etc... At its most extreme, sovereignty is was shared, not given away. The proof ..the withdrawal agreement.
Last time I looked,the badges on the police at the Airports, would have had ER not EU,whereas those in France had RF.
There are in fact a few places in Europe where policmen wear different badges. One being in a specific building of Dublin Airport, where the Irish state has allowed US immigration to set up a counter and terminal. There the police,wear US immigration uniforms.

 

[oldgroaner]

It isn't an obvious choice at all. Take those houses I had built. I obtain quotations for ground works, brick laying, electrical work, plumbing, roofing, joinery, plastering, decorating, the list of trades goes on. I use mainly Polish tradesmen, they are reliable, trustworthy and work to a satisfactory standard and they are cheap. They are in oversupply and have driven down hourly rates to an incredibly low level, truly astonishing. That suits me perfectly, but look at it from the point of view of the local tradesmen who grew up in that area, trained with local companies and earned a modest wage to live a lifestyle which suited them. To be perfectly honest, the hourly rate now is not worth getting out of bed for, it's been driven through the floor. How do they feel about free movement and all that it has brought them?

This is not the fault of the Polish tradesmen, The EU has provided them with a mechanism to enhance their livelihoods and they have take up that opportunity. Who could blame them, I'd do the same. Danidl's suggestion has merit, we need to get stuck into the EU with some credible representatives from the UK and make these issues known and try to bring about change.

So it is a complex choice, not easy as you suggest. It is only easy if you are a blinkered single minded, stubborn and cantankerous sort of person, set in your ways and absolutely adamant that you will not see it from any other person's point of view. I can see now that the choice is so complex, that it should never have been put to the public to decide. Leave or stay has so many different implications for so many different people that it is wrong for the public to decide. However, we are where we are and now that the Referendum route has been taken, I believe a second one is the only way froward. To snatch it away at this stage would be dangerous.

Do I see here an admission on your part?
They are in oversupply and have driven down hourly rates to an incredibly low level, truly astonishing. That suits me perfectly,
Why did you start exploiting them insead of paying the going rates?

I can't see it from your point of view? a property speculator that exploits vulnerable foreign workers?
To bloody right I can't!

Dishonest business practices exploiting the workers are to blame here , not free movement of people.
Are you paying them illegal rates?
Ask yourself, why was there a shortage of local plumbers?
I worked for both Ideal Standard an Armitage Shanks at the same time, I could read youu chapter and verse about the way dodgy developers have exploited the plumbing trade for years.
Large numbers of building workers had a best been on a few weeks course before fully trained polish workers came on the scene.
There were a lot of cowboys out there creating a considerable problem for companies like ours through shabby work.
Hence when capable trained foreign workers came on the scene they got the jobs
Try your nonsense on somewhere where you can hoodwink the gullible, and because they were vulnerable they were exploited.

 

[oldgroaner]

Face it. They have made the administrative move to Holland because they can get away with paying less tax there. It's like a tax haven for them, you know, the tax havens you criticise. The UK are trying to do something about the unfair levels of tax these companies pay and Sony don't like it, so they have gone.

There must be something they like because they are leaving all the jobs here in the UK.

They are keeping a presence in case common sense prevail and Brexit is cancelled

 

[anotherkiwi]

Face it. They have made the administrative move to Holland because they can get away with paying less tax there. It's like a tax haven for them, you know, the tax havens you criticise. The UK are trying to do something about the unfair levels of tax these companies pay and Sony don't like it, so they have gone.

There must be something they like because they are leaving all the jobs here in the UK.

If they wanted to pay less tax they would have gone to Dublin...

 

[Zlatan]

OG
You trully are cantankerous poster. Your answer to 50hz is astoundingly inflamatory. There is nothing anywhere to suggest anyone was taking advantage of anyone. Working for Armitage Shanks is just so appropriate for you.. You talk crap.
And BTW "polish" workers probably shine things. I think you meant "Polish workers". Idiot.
If you had the slightest hint of humanity you would apologise for your attack on 50. Its a disgrace. You dont know the chap but are willing to suggest he takes advantage of workers. You really are horrible.
You will bring anything into an argument to somehow put down anybody with opposing views.
You are the worst kind of Troller.

 

[flecc]

History tells us what happens when Germany gets an army. They invade countries and put people in gas chambers.

But this is a combined French and German army, and the French surrender.

So I suppose when they invade they'll be holding white flags with their hands in the air.
.

 

[Woosh]

But this is a combined French and German army, and the French surrender.

So I suppose whenthey invade they'll be holding white flags with their hands in the air.
.

not this time!

 

[jonathan.agnew]

It isn't an obvious choice at all. Take those houses I had built. I obtain quotations for ground works, brick laying, electrical work, plumbing, roofing, joinery, plastering, decorating, the list of trades goes on. I use mainly Polish tradesmen, they are reliable, trustworthy and work to a satisfactory standard and they are cheap. They are in oversupply and have driven down hourly rates to an incredibly low level, truly astonishing. That suits me perfectly, but look at it from the point of view of the local tradesmen who grew up in that area, trained with local companies and earned a modest wage to live a lifestyle which suited them. To be perfectly honest, the hourly rate now is not worth getting out of bed for, it's been driven through the floor. How do they feel about free movement and all that it has brought them?

This is not the fault of the Polish tradesmen, The EU has provided them with a mechanism to enhance their livelihoods and they have take up that opportunity. Who could blame them, I'd do the same. Danidl's suggestion has merit, we need to get stuck into the EU with some credible representatives from the UK and make these issues known and try to bring about change.

So it is a complex choice, not easy as you suggest. It is only easy if you are a blinkered single minded, stubborn and cantankerous sort of person, set in your ways and absolutely adamant that you will not see it from any other person's point of view. I can see now that the choice is so complex, that it should never have been put to the public to decide. Leave or stay has so many different implications for so many different people that it is wrong for the public to decide. However, we are where we are and now that the Referendum route has been taken, I believe a second one is the only way froward. To snatch it away at this stage would be dangerous.

You do bring to mind some aquintances, who want the roof done on the cheap by a Polish builder while complaining about eu migration. A bit like trump who wants to let his Slovenian wife bring her family to US on immigrant visas while telling others this its heresy. Double standards is the word I believe. Its why I hope for a hard brexit. It will hit those who exploit the system most

 

[anotherkiwi]

But this is a combined French and German army, and the French surrender.

So I suppose whenthey invade they'll be holding white flags with their hands in the air.
.

There was a documentary about that yesterday. You got lucky at Dunkirk - Hitler got cold feet and didn't push his advantage. The push through the Ardennes wasn't his idea either, he just took credit for it and it could have gone either way. Up until the surrender the French were following English orders BTW...

 

[50Hertz]

Do I see here an admission on your part?
They are in oversupply and have driven down hourly rates to an incredibly low level, truly astonishing. That suits me perfectly,
Why did you start exploiting them insead of paying the going rates?

I can't see it from your point of view? a property speculator that exploits vulnerable foreign workers?
To bloody right I can't!

Dishonest business practices exploiting the workers are to blame here , not free movement of people.
Are you paying them illegal rates?
Ask yourself, why was there a shortage of local plumbers?
I worked for both Ideal Standard an Armitage Shanks at the same time, I could read youu chapter and verse about the way dodgy developers have exploited the plumbing trade for years.
Large numbers of building workers had a best been on a few weeks course before fully trained polish workers came on the scene.
There were a lot of cowboys out there creating a considerable problem for companies like ours through shabby work.
Hence when capable trained foreign workers came on the scene they got the jobs
Try your nonsense on somewhere where you can hoodwink the gullible, and because they were vulnerable they were exploited.

I put work out to tender and then choose the most appropriate based on experience, availability, track record and price. I pay the rate that people offer to work for. Every person I employ is registered and works either for a larger company or on sole trader basis. There is nothing illegal, underhanded or “cash in hand”.

You are such a blinkered person that you immediately assume that dealings are underhanded. The low wages are entirely due to free movement of people. There is an oversupply of trades in the area and this is driving down prices. People are undercutting each other in order to secure work.

I can’t believe what a narrow minded person you are. You are obsessed to the point of it being a sickness.

 

[flecc]

What prompted that? Germay has an army - Bundeswehr and an air force, and a navy. It's part of NATO and due in the main part to its history doesn't want to go all militristic. Heck it was one of the countries that Trump railed at for not contributing 2% GDP of its budget towards defence - so is quite operationally underfunded.

And as part of NATO the German army refused to fight in the Afghanistan campaign, only carrying out clerical duties.

And Belgium, also in NATO, refused to supply us with a key ammunition type we'd run out of and for which they had surplus, simply because they disagreed with our action there.

Add the French who surrender and the Italians famed for running away and ditto, and I don't think anyone need fear an army made up of such components. Little wonder Putin acts so fearlessly.
.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

I put work out to tender and then choose the most appropriate based on experience, availability, track record and price. I pay the rate that people offer to work for. Every person I employ is registered and works either for a larger company or on sole trader basis. There is nothing illegal, underhanded or “cash in hand”.

You are such a blinkered person that you immediately assume that dealings are underhanded. The low wages are entirely due to free movement of people. There is an oversupply of trades in the area and this is driving down prices. People are undercutting each other in order to secure work.

I can’t believe what a narrow minded person you are. You are obsessed to the point of it being a sickness.

Are you sure you shouldn't change your nic to 'sanctimonious'?

 

[flecc]

The thing that gets me about the situation at the moment is this:

When I voted I voted to leave. Which was very clear to me - it was to leave the customs union and the single market and to get out of the jurisdiction of the ECJ. That was basically it. That was what 'leave' meant. Take back control. Plain and simple. Every politician from every side said that's what it meant. Countless numbers of them said that's what it meant.

Completely agree James and you have been let down.

But, and it's a big but, all the leave politicians promised it would be easy to get a deal granting us those conditions you want.

The EU told them in advance that was impossible, we Remainers did too as the early pages of this thread show, and of course that Leave team have been proved wrong.

There never was any such deal possible and never could be in future. The choice was only ever Remain or it's near equivalent like Norway, or walk out with No Deal.
.

 

[50Hertz]

You do bring to mind some aquintances, who want the roof done on the cheap by a Polish builder while complaining about eu migration. A bit like trump who wants to let his Slovenian wife bring her family to US on immigrant visas while telling others this its heresy. Double standards is the word I believe. Its why I hope for a hard brexit. It will hit those who exploit the system most

If I want 9 x roofing jobs doing on houses and I put that out to tender to 4 contractors / roofers all of which I know are capable of doing the work, all of whom are legitimate companies or sole traders and I choose the most competitive quote, what’s wrong with that? These are registered traders, not cash in hand jobs. This is totally down to the Polish guys being willing to work for less in order to get the work. What they quote and offer to work for is far better than they can achieve in Poland. They are very happy, the U.K. guys not so much so, their rates are being driven into the weeds.

So don’t go around throwing accusations of dodgy dealings about. This is totally compliant with the employment and tax laws. The situation has been created in its entirety by free movement.

Do you honestly expect me to reject a quotation on the basis of it being too cheap and insist on paying more than quoted? Do you do this with the Chinese $h!t you buy? Pay a bit more because Chinese workers have poor working conditions and are exploited? No you don’t because you are just the same as every other fake socialist.

 

[50Hertz]

Are you sure you shouldn't change your nic to 'sanctimonious'?

Don’t dodge the question with an insult. What is wrong with my business practice of inviting registered traders to tender and choosing the most competitive?

I think your social values are being exposed as fake and being tested. That’s why you are retreating.

 

[50Hertz]

If they wanted to pay less tax they would have gone to Dublin...

Well they chose Holland to pay less tax instead. Leaving the jobs here.