Brexit, for once some facts.

[OxygenJames]

My worry is the degree of suffering. The EU offered directives protecting low paid workers - OK they may not have been written into UK law but who's fault is that?

Its in the directive - but only 3 out of the 27 actually have minimum wage laws.

Not that minimum wage laws actually work - they reduce wages for those near or close to the actual poverty line.

 

[OxygenJames]

Fully agreed and very true for me too, but it's after 46 years of being in the EU, so I fear that could change and on all indications that's likely.

But it's not only about the economy and living standards, it's having only UK government control that I fear the most. Such things as our governments fighting to protect our injustices in actions in EU courts cases. Such things as refusing to implement the working time directive, meaning our workers can be forced to work 48 hour weeks intsead of the 35 hour EU ones. Such as the desire to get rid of the excellent Human Rights Act to replace it with a bill of reduced rights. Such as the 35 pence a day junk food children's school meals, 2 to 4 euros in many EU countries.

Just look at the way we had to be shamed into increasing state pensions by a three or four to one disparity with our EU neighbours, yet they are still noticeably lower.

Those are my greatest fears, being at the not so tender mercies of our wealth protecting UK governments.
.

My advice to you Flecc: Get out on your bike more. Drop into this thread once a week at most. Live life before its too late.

 

[OxygenJames]

leave of course, where is the problem with that?
And begin a campaign to rejoin the EU
Boris had the right idea once upon a time

So he changed his mind! Well done Boris!!

And darn it was good - him, Gisela Stuart and Gove coming over to the Leave campaign when they did were vital for its success.

 

[flecc]

My advice to you Flecc: Get out on your bike more. Drop into this thread once a week at most. Live life before its too late.

In other words, be complacent.

No thanks, I prefer vigilance to nasty surprises.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

With an attitude like that you should make a killing on the stock market.

But meanwhile - on planet earth......

The stock market isn't the real world, it is now a king sized betting shop. A good idea (capitalism) has been perverted beyond recognition and the "markets" are a farce which are the cause of many problems but never the solution to any.

 

[Danidl]

Still so negative!

We're still hopeful.

The fat lady has yet to sing.

That is certainly true. Unfortunately we dont know whether she can sing like Marie Callas, or me..(and i dont have a note in my head!.)

 

[Danidl]

Absolutely. What has dragged millions of those in China (and India and Asia) out of poverty (particularly over the last 30 years) is not restricted 'clubs' like the EU - but opening up markets.

Allowing people to trade with each other without imposing tariffs - this is the answer.

Exactly..and the 450 million of your closest Neighbors is a good start.
The great success of the Chinese model has been a result of rewarding some enterprise, massive amounts of state intervention, community rights (as defined by an all powerful party) having precedence over any individual rights. It is not free trade as such. Now that is totally at variance with the major complaints of the majority of pro Brexit correspondents on this forum,who dislike any centralised authority, which is not provincial in nature.

 

[Fingers]

That is certainly true. Unfortunately we dont know whether she can sing like Marie Callas, or me..(and i dont have a note in my head!.)

I thought every Irish man could sing a tune?

You disappoint again Dan. I will just have to listen to you on the fiddle once we have our Brexit day drink up.

 

[Woosh]

While the UK just favours the wealthy establishment.
.

not so much wealthy establishment - the UK favours wealthy individuals.

 

[Woosh]

TM is defeated again after defeat yesterday for Yvette Cooper amendment!

308/297 just now for Dominic Grieve's amendment.

 

[flecc]

not so much wealthy establishment - the UK favours wealthy individuals.

Agreed, I meant the wealthy establishment individuals.
.

 

[Danidl]

I thought every Irish man could sing a tune?

You disappoint again Dan. I will just have to listen to you on the fiddle once we have our Brexit day drink up.

Disappoint you?.... You should talk to my wife ..she would let you know what disappointment means!!!.

 

[Fingers]

I wonder if the best thing once the Zombie loses her vote is to have a GE? Extend article 50 and have the vote on April 4th.

It doesn't change the referendum but it could give a much needed change of ideas and boost for whoever wins.

This lot are the most dire I've ever seen.

 

[Fingers]

TM is defeated again after defeat yesterday for Yvette Cooper amendment!

308/297 just now for Dominic Grieve's amendment.

But thats barely a 1% margin!

That's not democracy!!

RE RUN THE VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[flecc]

But thats barely a 1% margin!

That's not democracy!!

But they are MPs, part of the establishment. Their 1% is far more important than ours.
.

 

[vidtek]

Still so negative!

We're still hopeful.

The fat lady has yet to sing.

Fattist remark!!!

 

[oldgroaner]

There is just far too much animosity regarding brexit, and it seems to have infected this thread too which is a pity; although we may disagree on brexit, we come here to help each other and receive advice.
I personally voted to leave, but I respect the other side's opinions and would not dream of deriding their beliefs.
Let's face it, nobody can see into the future, so whatever happens is unknowable to all of us, we are all just speculating as to what we think may happen. Why don't we all just wait and see.

All humans can see into the future, as an example we all know we are going to die, where people differ is their ability to postulate the probable outcome of a series of events, based on comparing their experience with the available facts.

You may think that what will happen is unknowable, but so far predictions of the way events will pan out have been pretty accurate on here, to blithely imagine that what is happening is controlled by mere chance is not realistic

Alas we all have to wait and see, and for many of us that is the tragedy, that a vote based on guesswork and hope alone got us into this situation.

 

[oldgroaner]

Fattist remark!!!

What is he hopeful of?
And why the American quote?
Quite baffling really

 

[oldgroaner]

Fun in the HOC

That should concentrate certain minds!

 

[OxygenJames]

Another of the main reasons I voted leave - and many I am sure did likewise - is because I felt the EU does not represent me. I didn't bother voting in the last EU elections for that very reason. I like my democracy close - the closer the better.

Here's some stats I found today that confirms I was not alone in this thinking:

"Rates of turnout at European Parliament elections have been nothing short of dire, falling from a respectable 62% at the first contest in 1979 to 43% in 2014.

But look at individual states. Five years ago, turnout slumped below 30% in Hungary, Slovenia and Poland, and to just 13% in Slovakia.

Alongside the more recent finding that nearly one in two people do not feel that their voice counts in the EU, 2019 will underline the way in which the EU is struggling from a lack of grassroots democratic engagement."