Brexit, for once some facts.

Steed

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I don't want that, remember my reminder that the majority get it wrong?

By far the most successful part of the UK is and has long been London, and London is always Labour and decidedly Remainer. Right on all counts as the success shows. If the rest of the country had any sense it would follow that example.
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Sorry Flecc, much as I respect your wisdom in most comments, this particular comment I find breathtakingly arrogant - "if the rest of the country had any sense" - unbelievable. Just read London has overtaken New York in murders last month as well! I am rarely moved to comment on this forum but there we are.
 
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Zlatan

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"I don't want that, remember my reminder that the majority get it wrong?"

Well the majority nearly always win an election. Cant remember when they pronounced winner as any other.

As to rest of your comment, suspect its exactly why we are where we are.
 
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flecc

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Sorry Flecc, much as I respect your wisdom in most comments, this particular comment I find breathtakingly arrogant - "if the rest of the country had any sense" - unbelievable. Just read London has overtaken New York in murders last month as well! I am rarely moved to comment on this forum but there we are.
I don't think murders of a particular type apertaining to one narrow problematic group as both villains and victims has any relevance to the political choices of Londoners as a whole. Your statistic is inaccurate anyway. There was a sudden spike in London murders in January and February which was still under New Yorks total in those months. New York suffers far more murders than London every year.

The fact is that Londoners political and economic choices over time have been very right, as the results show. Yet those choices are largely not those of the rest of the country which is failing and often reliant on London money. If pointing that out is arrogant, then I'm happy to be arrogant.
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Danidl

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That is what Brexit is all about now. Once they've sold everything else and Brexit fails, the government and ownership of the UK may be up for sale for a big enough cash consideration for those doing the selling.

Advertised as an "Attractive offshore island with strategic potential", the US, EU, Russian and Chinese bidding could be fun!
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There was a movement in Ireland, some years ago about seeking to have it become the 51st state. Of the USA, .. we are closer than Hawaii , but we value our independence, and choose EU membership. The arguement was not dissimilar to your. "Attractive offshore island. "
 

tillson

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I don't want that, remember my reminder that the majority get it wrong?

By far the most successful part of the UK is and has long been London, and London is always Labour and decidedly Remainer. Right on all counts as the success shows. If the rest of the country had any sense it would follow that example.
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I think a lot of that happens by default because London happens to have been nominated as the capital city. Companies invest in London because of its capital status and the associated prestige that brings . For example, it is more prestigious for a company to be located on London than it is in Leicester. The people of Leicester are no less capable or intelligent, its just that Leicester doesn't happen to be the capital. I think this success has little to do with any local or political decisions made by the transient population of London. It's the capital, the shop window, it has to receive investment regardless of any other factors.

I'm visiting London for the first time in many years later this month. I'm guessing there will be very few original Londoners like Dick Van Dyke left?
 
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flecc

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I think a lot of that happens by default because London happens to have been nominated as the capital city. Companies invest in London because of its capital status and the associated prestige that brings .
There was a time when that was true to a fair extent, but it certainly is no longer. For decades central governments of both persuasions have successfully encouraged and bribed companies to leave London and go to needy regions. Still more left anyway for lifestyle advantages. In our borough we've lost many major companies to the provinces over the last 50 years, the latest being Nestle, losing us 4000 jobs. But London always bounces back to create new success, for example being a major centre in the world's electronic games creation industry.

I'm visiting London for the first time in many years later this month. I'm guessing there will be very few original Londoners like Dick Van Dyke left?
There's never been any original Londoners, past and present have always been imports. A huge proportion of "yer cockney" taxi drivers are direct descendants of the Eastern European Jews who came here around the start of the 20th century and occupied parts of East London. That's why the West Ham supporters call themselves "The Yids", much to the disgust of some fussy Jews. Don't understand why they are annoyed at West Ham supporters being proud of Jewish associations.
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oldgroaner

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Sorry Flecc, much as I respect your wisdom in most comments, this particular comment I find breathtakingly arrogant - "if the rest of the country had any sense" - unbelievable. Just read London has overtaken New York in murders last month as well! I am rarely moved to comment on this forum but there we are.
Welcome Steed! however much as I dislike London I don't think flecc was referring to the murder rate as the example to be followed.
Interestingly I don't find his comments breathtakingly arrogant, just misguided in this instance...
Why?
Because the labour party has chosen to try to take power and have to try to make Brexit work, and this is the biggest strategic political error of all time.
Brexit is a nightmare created by, of and because of cat fighting inside the Tory party

They should be given the opportunity of making it work, or die in the attempt.
Taking power now is the equivalent of snatching someone elses Nuclear Powered Enema! :eek:
 
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oldgroaner

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As one who lived in London for over three decades and still visits frequently, I can assure you that the capital still has its fair share of dicks!

Tom
I used to spend Tuesdays and Wednesdays there every week for two decades, Never cared for it, I prefer to breathe air.
Favourite view?
Canary Wharf in my Rear View Mirrors, and the great North Road ahead.
The people were great, pity they had to live there when there are far less Frantic, crowded and busy places in this great country of ours

For the sake of the future of the planet, there should be limits of the size cities can get to, and London will eventually swallow the rest of the country unless something is done to curb it's expansion.

Just had an optimistic thought: Brexit might well achieve the desired effect!:)
 
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flecc

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For the sake of the future of the planet, there should be limits of the size cities can get to, and London will eventually swallow the rest of the country unless something is done to curb it's expansion.
The inaccuracies about London from outsiders never cease to amaze me!

The London Green Belt, the first in Britain, was implemented in 1938. Since then London has been unable to expand into or beyond it. The County of Greater London and it's boundaries within those confines was established in 1965, over half a century ago.

So what is this mythical expansion threatening to swallow the rest of the country?
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oldgroaner

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The inaccuracies about London from outsiders never cease to amaze me!

The London Green Belt, the first in Britain, was implemented in 1938. Since then London has been unable to expand into or beyond it. The County of Greater London and it's boundaries within those confines was established in 1965, over half a century ago.

So what is this mythical expansion threatening to swallow the rest of the country?
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Like this?
" The first implementation of the Green Belt was in London in 1938, when the Green Belt Act was passed, allowing the government to purchase lands and form development restriction covenants with landowners. The subsequent Greater London Plan and post-war Town and Country Planning Act affirmed the designation of a huge swath of land around London as an official Green Belt, within which urban development was generally prohibited and whose inner border designated an urban growth boundary. Since then, Greenbelts have appeared in cities throughout the world, including Seoul, Bangkok, Berlin, Toronto, and Boulder.[xxxvi] While Greenbelts have certainly limited development within the greenbelt area itself, they have not consistently enforced development boundaries. Amati and Yokohari report that while the belt is somewhat effective at the urban fringe, “At the regional scale,” spurred by high housing prices and development constraints, “development ‘leapfrogs’ the green belt into deeper rural areas,” and “such development has been linked to a higher car use and longer car journeys,” straining infrastructure and defeating any ecological intentions.These outer agglomerations, too close and too lifeless to be their own cities (as Howard had hoped) but far enough from the main city to cause traffic headaches, can eventually overwhelm and defeat the purpose of the Green Belt, as happened in Beijing. In addition, Wu and Plantiga show that the amenity value of the Green Belt itself serves to draw development away from the city center and closer to the belt, serving to spread rather than compact the city."

I have visited more customer complaints in housing developments in the so called green belt areas than I care to remember, and every year there are more and more, it was a great idea, but has
just managed to spread London traffic further and further out to satellite areas tha are really part of the City.

The latest statistics produced by Communities and Local Government (CLG) show that approximately 200,000 new dwellings were built in 2007 with 2% in the designated Green Belt, and 22% of these (or 0.4% of the total number of dwellings) were built on the previously undeveloped land in the Green Belt. By comparison, 14% of all new dwellings were built on agricultural land across England

Here are handy tips to get a house built in the Green Belt
https://urbanistarchitecture.co.uk/how-to-get-planning-permission-for-building-on-greenbelt-land-in-the-uk/
Not very encouraging and now the Government have an initiative to change the law to release areas in the Green belt for development
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-plans-to-relax-laws-against-building-on-green-belt-land-a6764511.html
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"But under a government consultation launched on Monday rules will be changed to allow councils “to allocate appropriate small-scale sites in the Green Belt specifically for starter homes”.

While this would not allow generalised development on Green Belt, it would allow the construction of homes under the Government’s new Start Homes housing scheme.

The “Starter Homes” scheme involves private developers building new homes for people to buy; these homes are 20 per cent cheaper than normal homes to buy because of a small government subsidy. "

The Expression "Thin end of the wedge springs to mind"

The Green Belt has been a delay in the expansion of the city that has effectively continued beyond it with Satellite towns, and will disappear after Brexit. and in any case merely acted as a sort of internal "greenish moat" of London.
 
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flecc

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The Green Belt has been a delay in the expansion of the city that has effectively continued beyond it with Satellite towns, and will disappear after Brexit. and in any case merely acted as a sort of internal "greenish moat" of London.
Mainly irrelevant waffle ignoring the facts that don't fit:

Fact 1: Much of the land of the green belt has covenants that separately prevent development. For example at opposite poles, Epping Forest and Selsdon Wood Nature Reserve and many more like them.

Fact 2: Large swathes of the London green belt are owned by the City of London Corporation with binding legal protections against any development. I live on the London Surrey border and most of the green belt by me is thus owned and I can assure you the Corporation is fiercely protective.

Of course within the confines housing has spread, as much for lifestyle as price, as in my case. And that of necessity means traffic spread into those areas. But London is experiencing the largest decline of car ownership in the country and the ratio of ownership is now much lower than elsewhere.
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Zlatan

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"Viktor Yushchenko: Ukraine's ex-president on being poisoned


Ukraine's former president Viktor Yushchenko says he hopes Europe will wake up to the threat posed by Russia in the wake of the poisonings in Salisbury.

Fourteen years ago Mr Yushchenko was taking on a presidential candidate favoured by Russia when he was poisoned with a dioxin, a toxic chemical."

Full story and what poison has done to him is available on various media. ( this quote from Sky News)
 

oldgroaner

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"Viktor Yushchenko: Ukraine's ex-president on being poisoned


Ukraine's former president Viktor Yushchenko says he hopes Europe will wake up to the threat posed by Russia in the wake of the poisonings in Salisbury.

Fourteen years ago Mr Yushchenko was taking on a presidential candidate favoured by Russia when he was poisoned with a dioxin, a toxic chemical."

Full story and what poison has done to him is available on various media. ( this quote from Sky News)
Can we move on or are you going to haunt the thread with this by now exhausted subject?
 
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flecc

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Just been listening to a fascinating account of how the West fears it is losing Turkey to Russia. Since 2015 their two presidents have been cosying up and are now closely aligned, Turkey even installing a Russian missile defence system, much to NATO's alarm. Turkey is now a preferred holiday destination for Russians and the Cyrillic alphabet characters are often seen in major shop signs there.

It's all getting the West very rattled since Turkey is a NATO member and one of the five NATO nuclear partners. The EU is trying to find a formula that will keep Turkey in the Western fold without giving them EU membership, the latter impossible with Turkey's very poor human rights record.

Since Turkey's huge standing defence forces are second only to the USA, it's loss to the Russian side would be a strategic disaster for the West.

Once again this illustrates both that Putin should never be underestimated and how easily he runs rings around Western strategy.
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Zlatan

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Just been listening to a fascinating account of how the West fears it is losing Turkey to Russia. Since 2015 their two presidents have been cosying up and are now closely aligned, Turkey even installing a Russian missile defence system, much to NATO's alarm. Turkey is now a preferred holiday destination for Russians and the Cyrillic alphabet characters are often seen in major shop signs there.

It's all getting the West very rattled since Turkey is a NATO member and one of the five NATO nuclear partners. The EU is trying to find a formula that will keep Turkey in the Western fold without giving them EU membership, the latter impossible with Turkey's very poor human rights record.

Since Turkey's huge standing defence forces are second only to the USA, it's loss to the Russian side would be a strategic disaster for the West.

Once again this illustrates both that Putin should never be underestimated and how easily he runs rings around Western strategy.
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Can we move on or are you going to haunt the thread with this by now exhausted subject?
Think I,ll keep it up OG...
 
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