Brexit, for once some facts.

Wicky

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Feb 12, 2014
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QUOTE="Woosh, post: 427906, member: 8175"]The current row has been boiling under the surface since Russian intervention in Syria.
NATO has to deal with a superpower that it cannot militarily humiliate nor defeat. Now it seems that Putin has won in Syria.
This is just getting back at Russia in any way possible.[/QUOTE]

And vice versa - Putin comes from a bygone Soviet age and aspires to the glorious adversarial Cold War days back come what may.
 

Woosh

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And vice versa - Putin comes from a bygone Soviet age and aspires to the glorious adversarial Cold War days back come what may.
It's more likely that Putin believes in 'Realpolitik'.
We are a vassal state to the USA in foreign policy for so long that we have already forgotten what an independent foreign policy looks like.
 

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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Instead of facts emerging and clarity beginning to dawn, the picture is becoming less clear as time passes. The latest revelation that the poison was planted whilst his daughter was in Russia opens up many more possibilities, potential suspects and throws into question who the intended victim was and even which country the attack was carried out in.

The latest information regarding the poison being planted before the daughter left Russia makes it entirely possible that this was never intended to be an attack carried out on UK soil. The intent could have been to kill her inside Russia before she left for the UK, if the attacker even knew she intended to travel to the UK in the first place.

In this particular case, the slow acting nature of the poison also seems to be at odds with what we are told about the supposed toxicity of this material. Many aspects of this case don't stack up and there seems to be many contradictory factors.

Turning to Nick Bailey, the police officer who seems to have been poisoned as a result of being one of the first on the scene, something doesn't seem quite right there either. As far as I know, Nick Bailey is a Detective Sergeant, a non-uniform investigation supervisor, not a response officer. This incident would most likely have been reported as a man and woman in a park feeling unwell / semi-conscious / vomiting etc. No one would have had the slightest inkling that a nerve agent was responsible. That thought wouldn't even have been in anyone's mind, so why send a Detective Sergeant, unless he was off-duty and happened to be passing by? In 99.999% of cases like this, a regular copper or PCSO would be the first line of response. They would have stood around for a bit, scratched their heads, scratched their @rses, maybe tried a but of CPR etc. The Detectives normally arrive much later in the process, not as first line response. Anyway, I hope he soon recovers or else he will be on half pay after six months and no pay after twelve. That was one of Theresa May's gifts to the police service to show how proud and grateful she for the essential and difficult work done by the emergency services.

I continue to be impressed by Jeremy Corbyn for continuing his stance and insistence that proper processes are followed and that people don't jump to hasty conclusions. This is particularly noteworthy because he is not allowed himself to be bullied into line by the newspapers and popular opinion. This is actually leadership we are witnessing. A man with a view and an opinion, which he knows may not be popular thinking, but he puts out into the public domain and defends it in the face of bullying and insults.

I think the governments response is starting to show signs of being premature & uncoordinated and now it's starting to smell of fish. No change, no change, situation normal.
Must admit Corbyn has shown a degree of stubbornness required in leaders and has done his job of opposinng..
But I think you,ll find his current view is that Russian's are responsible..
 
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Wicky

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It's more likely that Putin believes in 'Realpolitik'.
We are a vassal state to the USA in foreign policy for so long that we have already forgotten what an independent foreign policy looks like.
More likely Russia under Putin is like an abusive father (remember Stalin who is still quite venerated in Russia) who family split up and the kids (former Soviet territories) left home to make their own independent way in the world - but now Putin wants them back under his control for comfort / exploitation.

Not that Trump brings much good as 'leader' of the free world. Between these two egotistical Nationislistic millstones populations will be ground to pieces (see Syria / Ukraine).
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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From evening standard.
"Jeremy Corbyn appears to have backtracked on his reaction to Theresa May’s decision to blame Moscow for the Salisbury nerve agent attack.
The Labour leader today said “the evidence points towards Russia” after he sparked a huge rift in his party by refusing to back the Prime ..."
 

Danidl

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OG as you say ... "You can't run a civilised society on Justice administered without evidence.".
But there is prima facie evidence.... Circumstantial evidence apparently, but evidence none the less and in the dealings between nation states , the burden of proof required is not that of a standard criminal case. There is no requirement to prove beyond reasonable doubt,
Again I would say that the response of the UK government in expelling guests of their nation after allowing them a week to regularise their affairs, is proportionate. Indeed even the reported response from Russian officials in the aftermath was so cynical that it in itself would have invited relaliation.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Putin's third term as President is a bit dodgy

“One person may not hold the position of Russian president for more than two terms in a row.” Article 81, Section 3 of the Russian constitution
No it isn't, that refers to two terms in a row. Putin circumvented that when he swapped places with Dmitri Medvedev and was Prime Minister. That means he has two terms from 2012, and this election starts his second term which will expire in 2024. It's widely believed he will have the consitution changed then to allow him to continue, since few Russians can conceive of a future not led by him.

Hate him or not, this is his popularity according to the West:

 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Sorry Flecc, I think you are being very very niave about Putin and both his motives and ways of operating.
How can you say that when I've observed that I don't like his methods, merely understand the necessity?

I'm not fooled in any way about him or his motives. Those motives are to be in absolute power and make Russia a top world power again in the way the USSR was. He will do whatever is necessary to do that.

In what way is that naive?

What is naive is accepting our politicians account of this botched murder attempt that makes no sense when we know how dishonest they have been previously. From deposing the democratic government of Iran in favour of a dictator in 1948 through to the second gulf war in Iraq, we've repeatedly been lied to by our UK governments and prime ministers, aided by media co-operation.

The real truth, as Woosh has already alluded to, is that both sides are utterly corrupt and prepared to use any means to secure their ends. Neither fool me.
.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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And vice versa - Putin comes from a bygone Soviet age and aspires to the glorious adversarial Cold War days back come what may.
Not really, Woosh gave the correct answer in this post.

Like China, Putin with Russia is following an independent policy that isn't slave to US wishes, and he's winning. The USA doesn't like it and will use any means to discredit him.
.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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I'm sure many Russians are responsible people. ;)
.
Perhaps niave is wrong word, you judge others by your own standards. If I thought Putin was anything like as nice / fair as you I,d agree with you.
The thing is since none of us are actually deciding what to do next we do not need to treat it like a murder case with us on the jury and be 100% sure of our opinions..hence I THINK Putin is guilty, as I,m not in a position of authority its almost irrelevant what I, and most of us , think.
Jeremy Corbyn being in opposition can afford the luxury of applying morals and whatever he sees fit , to make his decision. Unfortunately for TM she must act. The actions so far have been perfectly legitimate. Sent people home.
I wonder what JC would have done ? Nothing ? Wait for proof ? For how long ?
 

Woosh

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I wonder what JC would have done ? Nothing ? Wait for proof ? For how long ?
He condemned the attempt on the life of the Skripals.
That's correct.
There is an international protocol for chemical weapons. If the UK government suspects chemical weapons then it should investigate until it can make a case according to agreed protocol. In the meantime, it should raise the level of alerts and take all necessary precautions to prevent harms to residents.
So far, no one has died, so there is no need to threaten cyber war.
Until then, it's a matter for the police and if the police can find the suspects, for the CPS.
 
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flecc

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Unfortunately for TM she must act. The actions so far have been perfectly legitimate. Sent people home.
Yes, and I have no problem with that.

But she's made a mess of the accusations. She's reached a conclusion far too quickly and worse still, used Putin style threats on the basis of no firm evidence. There was no need for such haste and laying herself open to criticism and the case open to question.

Take the London shooting of PC Yvonne Fletcher by Gaddafi's Libyan embassy diplomats and the way that was handled. She was shot on the 17th April 1986 and responsibility was very quickly established. We broke off diplomatic relations and ordered the embassy staff to leave the country, which they did 10 days later. That was the only direct action we took at that time, biding our time for a suitable future opportunity. After a long investigation we decided which individuals we thought were guilty and long afterwards under pressure Gaddafi finally sent them to us for trial. One was acquitted, one convicted.

Two years after the murder another opportunity cropped up when the USA asked to use a UK base for bombing raids on Libya with the aim to kill Gaddafi. We gave that permission, stating that the PC's murder was a crucial factor in that decision. In the event they failed to kill Gaddafi but did kill his adopted daughter.

The difference is clear, that was a measured and patient way to deal with the problem, eventually getting satisfaction with little cause for disagreement.
.
 

Kudoscycles

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Apr 15, 2011
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The border problem is solved,the government is canvassing the freight operators with a new option....it is this option that Chris Grayling was refering to on Question Time,when he repeated that no trucks would be stopped at Dover.

This is what we call the 'Throw Open the Borders option,'" said one operator. The scenario involves the UK on day one of Brexit unilaterally deciding not to enforce customs checks, and other border checks, and presuming that a reciprocal approach will be taken by the European Union, and thus at least temporarily maintaining a non-negotiated form of frictionless trade in goods.

Wow.I never realised it was that simple....we just let everything carry on as normal,no checks,no tariffs,no anti dumping duty....as our government has always maintained its easy!!!!

Wonder if the EU will see it that way,hehe.
KudosDave
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
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www.kudoscycles.com
Instead of facts emerging and clarity beginning to dawn, the picture is becoming less clear as time passes. The latest revelation that the poison was planted whilst his daughter was in Russia opens up many more possibilities, potential suspects and throws into question who the intended victim was and even which country the attack was carried out in.

The latest information regarding the poison being planted before the daughter left Russia makes it entirely possible that this was never intended to be an attack carried out on UK soil. The intent could have been to kill her inside Russia before she left for the UK, if the attacker even knew she intended to travel to the UK in the first place.

In this particular case, the slow acting nature of the poison also seems to be at odds with what we are told about the supposed toxicity of this material. Many aspects of this case don't stack up and there seems to be many contradictory factors.

Turning to Nick Bailey, the police officer who seems to have been poisoned as a result of being one of the first on the scene, something doesn't seem quite right there either. As far as I know, Nick Bailey is a Detective Sergeant, a non-uniform investigation supervisor, not a response officer. This incident would most likely have been reported as a man and woman in a park feeling unwell / semi-conscious / vomiting etc. No one would have had the slightest inkling that a nerve agent was responsible. That thought wouldn't even have been in anyone's mind, so why send a Detective Sergeant, unless he was off-duty and happened to be passing by? In 99.999% of cases like this, a regular copper or PCSO would be the first line of response. They would have stood around for a bit, scratched their heads, scratched their @rses, maybe tried a but of CPR etc. The Detectives normally arrive much later in the process, not as first line response. Anyway, I hope he soon recovers or else he will be on half pay after six months and no pay after twelve. That was one of Theresa May's gifts to the police service to show how proud and grateful she for the essential and difficult work done by the emergency services.

I continue to be impressed by Jeremy Corbyn for continuing his stance and insistence that proper processes are followed and that people don't jump to hasty conclusions. This is particularly noteworthy because he is not allowed himself to be bullied into line by the newspapers and popular opinion. This is actually leadership we are witnessing. A man with a view and an opinion, which he knows may not be popular thinking, but he puts out into the public domain and defends it in the face of bullying and insults.

I think the governments response is starting to show signs of being premature & uncoordinated and now it's starting to smell of fish. No change, no change, situation normal.
Or it could be that Russia knew she was travelling to the UK to visit her father and gave her a 'present' to share with her father when they met. That way there is no murderer in the UK.
If that is the case there should be some evidence left on any packing....unless of course the father and daughter ate it all.
KudosDave
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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Not really, Woosh gave the correct answer in this post.

Like China, Putin with Russia is following an independent policy that isn't slave to US wishes, and he's winning. The USA doesn't like it and will use any means to discredit him.
.
Which USA is that? There is real confusion on that matter.
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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his is what we call the 'Throw Open the Borders option,'" said one operator. The scenario involves the UK on day one of Brexit unilaterally deciding not to enforce customs checks, and other border checks, and presuming that a reciprocal approach will be taken by the European Union, and thus at least temporarily maintaining a non-negotiated form of frictionless trade in goods.
way to go!
(AKA BRINO)
I did watch QT last night. Mairead McGuinness was quite charming!
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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The border problem is solved,the government is canvassing the freight operators with a new option....it is this option that Chris Grayling was refering to on Question Time,when he repeated that no trucks would be stopped at Dover en route to Calais....

This is what we call the 'Throw Open the Borders option,'" said one operator. The scenario involves the UK on day one of Brexit unilaterally deciding not to enforce customs checks, and other border checks, and presuming that a reciprocal approach will be taken by the European Union, and thus at least temporarily maintaining a non-negotiated form of frictionless trade in goods.

Wow.I never realised it was that simple....we just let everything carry on as normal,no checks,no tariffs,no anti dumping duty....as our government has always maintained its easy!!!!

Wonder if the EU will see it that way,hehe.
KudosDave
Why would British customs be examining trucks going from Dover to Calais?.. it's called exports. Would British customs not be examining trucks coming from Calais to Dover? So your Minister was precisely correct.
 

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
20,390
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Southend on Sea
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Why would British customs be examining trucks going from Dover to Calais?.. it's called exports. Would British customs not be examining trucks coming from Calais to Dover? So your Minister was precisely correct.
Grayling meant Calais to Dover.
We'll only check number plates of incoming trucks.
If it's not BRINO then I don't know what it is.
 

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