Brexit, for once some facts.

[tommie]

Sorry Flecc but that was a meandering hotchpotch... your choice of world statesmen is truly bewildering,

More observations on that Putin video....

`Mr Putin’s words will not come as a surprise to Victor Makarov, a former KGB agent who also turned and spied for Britain and was once a colleague of Mr Skripal.

Like Mr Skripal, Mr Makarov defected to the UK after serving as a double agent and in 2007 from his house in northern England, Mr Makarov spoke of his fears that the KGB would seek revenge.

"They will try to shoot me in the back of the head, but they might use poison," he said.

"They never forget. When I was at the KGB in the 1970s they were still chasing people who had betrayed them 30 years before."

The Russian government has denied any involvement in Mr Skripal's apparent poisoning, and said his `illness` was being used in the UK as part of an "anti-Russia campaign".

 

[Woosh]

at the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives.

not just lost human lives.
The recent wars in my life time (post WW2) displaced hundreds of millions innocent people after destroying the economy of dozens of countries.
The general rule is simple. If a country is unlucky enough to discover some new natural resource, somebody would be interested to initiate a war between that country and their neighbours or a civil war. The proceed of the new natural resource would then be used to buy weapons thus channeling the discovered resources to big vendors like France, UK, Russia and USA.

 

[oldtom]

In case anyone has forgotten how corrupt the DUP and the tories are, this little episode might remind you:

The Tories used 'English Votes for English Laws' rules to bar the SNP from voting against their plan to deny free school lunches to the children of some of the lowest income families in Britain, but their £1 billion bribe (paid out of taxpayers cash, not Tory party coffers) was enough to persuade the DUP to vote alongside the Tories to scrap free school meals for English and Welsh kids, despite the children of Northern Ireland being exempt from this free school lunch snatching behaviour.

The DUP know that Northern Irish kids are exempt from this cruel Tory lunch-snatching policy, but they voted to inflict it on the children of the English and Welsh regardless.

It's still astounding that the Tories are being propped up by this corrupt, hard-right, terrorist-backed, bigoted bunch of sectarian dinosaurs, and it's astounding that this DUP decision to vote in favour of starving low income kids in England and Wales to secure their £1 billion bribe has attracted so little negative attention in the mainstream press.

How sick is that!

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

Thanks for the explanation Zlatan.

I don't need to explain that away Tommie, as I've explained to Zlatan, Putin does what he feels necessary and has been very successful in uniting Russia and getting it in order. I certainly don't approve of the methods but understand the necessity.

But that is unconnected with the obviousness implicit in this act of poisoning, other than the fact that Putin has by that threatening statement unwisely laid himself open to being set up by any enemy.

As for the threat in his statement, hasn't Theresa May just threatened the same, that this and any similar acts will not go unpunished? The UK and USA have previously threatened in exactly the same way following 9/11, even to the extent of the totally unnecessary Iraq war at the cost of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. That's infinitely worse than anything Putin has ever done.
.

Sorry Flecc, I think you are being very very niave about Putin and both his motives and ways of operating.

 

[oldtom]

Here is another interesting take on the 'Russia' crisis created by tory central office in conjunction with the secret services:

The French reaction to the Salisbury chemical weapons attack is very interesting.

President Macron has stated that France wants to see "definitive evidence" before they act against Russia, which is going to cause a hell of a lot of cognitive dissonance amongst the disgraceful rump of war-mongering right-wing Labour MPs who see Macron as the absolute darling of their "centrist" ideology, but have been savaging Jeremy Corbyn for taking the exact same kind of evidence-seeking approach.

Then there's the French diplomat who went further, slamming the UK for "tying itself up in knots" and criticising our government's "very open policy" of seeking Russian private investment and sucking up to Russian oligarchs and Putin cronies.

Again this is very similar to Jeremy Corbyn's criticism of all the dark Russian money sloshing around the City of London (and the coffers of the Tory party) that the Labour right-wingers are acting so furious about.

So when are we going to see the right-winger Labour mob hurling criticism and abuse at the poster boy of neoliberal "centrism" for taking pretty much exactly the same positions as Jeremy Corbyn?

My guess is never, the absolute reeking hypocrites.

Tom

 

[tommie]

How sick is that

Tom ?

ftfy

LOL!! Tom has lost it!

Forum debate just isn`t for you Tom!

 

[Danidl]

That's the impossibility and why the certainties implied by the current official accusations are so wrong. They make the accusers look foolish in many eyes. It's left the Russians secretly amused, not a good outcome if they are the guilty ones.

This could have been handled far more subtly.
.

That it could have been handled more adroitly, no question!

 

[Wicky]

One of the first things I did considering the town centre location where the two were found was a search if the CCTV was experiencing any problems in Salisbury - as here in Colchester there was a pair of murders that maybe could have been possibly solved sooner if CCTV near one of the murder spots was working .

This is what turned up

From Dec 2017 http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/15773021.CCTV_volunteers_still_have_no_access_to_control_room/

and from a couple of days ago

https://www.spirefm.co.uk/news/local-news/2526330/was-salisburys-cctv-on-at-time-of-nerve-agent-attack/

 

[oldgroaner]

T
That's all absolutely true but it does not stop people being able to express opinions ( and without being called stupid by OG). I think Putin is responsible either directly ( ie under his instructions) or indirectly through poor security of the Russian nerve agent.
Yes, to take action we need proof or a high level of security but that ( taking action) is beyond my remit.
Seems Makron along with our nearest allies are saying they believe it to be Putin and even Corbyn is now saying all the evidence does point to Putin..
Dangerous times..

I dont think we will ever get irrefutable proof of the actual identity of who carried poisoning out, even with it some would still argue against anything May ( or our Government) did. There will always be conspiracy theorists...
Russia will never admit guilt.

Correction to another of your lies I remarked that what you were doing was stupid, when you distorted what I had writen, whereas you have repeatedly called me Stupid
Have a grown up explain the difference to you

 

[oldgroaner]

Oh dear, it just get`s worse...

now you`re just being gullible,

or possibly `pretend gullible` maybe ??

Flecc isn't, but you are

 

[oldgroaner]

I was interested to read a synopsis of the current situation expressed by a non-mainstream web blogger. This is what 'The Canary' makes of the present position:

View attachment 23820

new-evidence-left-theresa-mays-russian-spy-story-tatters

Tom

Oh Dear so it can be made in a Garage can it?
Considering how low the power of this agent is when compared with its reputation, it does seem likely to be from a pretty amateur source that cobbled it together.
What we have witnessed on this forum is how quickly people will jump to conclusions without evidence because of their prejudices.
Putin is without doubt a nasty individual with a dangerous nature, but then so are a lot of other politicians too.
This is very worrying,as it is a frightening thought, that if it can be manufactured right now in a garage, who is doing so, and what will they do next?
That is why simply jumping to convenient conclusions is utterly inadequate.

 

[oldgroaner]

LOL!! Tom has lost it!

Forum debate just isn`t for you Tom!

Nor you it seems

 

[Wicky]

Not so, it's the thing decent people do and the basis of all good legal systems.



I haven't supported Putin's innocence. I've repeatedly posted that I've no idea who was responsible. What I'm doing is exposing the total lack of any sound basis for saying either Russia or Putin are the guilty party. They are just two of many likely possibilities since both Russia and Putin have many enemies with the resources and ability to discredit them.



There's nothing intrinsically wrong with dictatorship, it's older than democracy and has often been superior to democratic alternatives. As for the "supposed democracy", I've pointed out before to you that Putin has done what was necessary to overcome the chaotic legacy of the breakup of the USSR and a substantial majority of Russians support him in that. That is a democratic outcome.
.

Putin's third term as President is a bit dodgy

“One person may not hold the position of Russian president for more than two terms in a row.” Article 81, Section 3 of the Russian constitution

 

[Wicky]

As for who could be the perpetrators, the list of those who despise Russia and Putin and would want to discredit them is very long, and many of them have the capabilities, knowledge and opportunities.

It's like an Agatha Christie who dunnit...

Video re-emerges of Putin threat that 'traitors will kick the bucket'

Threats during a television appearance in 2010 - with a "Trust me" added for good measure

 

[Zlatan]

Correction to another of your lies I remarked that what you were doing was stupid, when you distorted what I had writen, whereas you have repeatedly called me Stupid
Have a grown up explain the difference to you

Amazing how you can now make that distinction. You couldn't when you said Trump was an idiot and I corrected saying some of things he,d done were idiotic.
You will believe any old rubbish Tom posts. ( making Novichok in your garage !!)
Biased...and stupid.Case proven.

 

[Zlatan]

And as normal Tom's posts were out of date as he posted then. Initially Macron refused to point finger at Russians. He changed his stance somewhat yesterday. His statement/ speech left no doubt he thought Russians were responsible. This quote lifted from Times...
"In a rare joint statement, Theresa May, French President Emmanuel Macron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and US President Donald Trump declared there is "no plausible alternative explanation" other than Russia being responsible."

This has made Russia change its position slightly. They are now saying they have been made scapegoat by the world...apart from a barmy few ofcourse.

 

[oldgroaner]

Amazing how you can now make that distinction. You couldn't when you said Trump was an idiot and I corrected saying some of things he,d done were idiotic.
You will believe any old rubbish Tom posts. ( making Novichok in your garage !!)
Biased...and stupid.Case proven.

Is this the best you can do? tell, ho did the Japanese terrorists get hold of Sarin?
Perhaps you should close your mouth and open your mind
https://www.smh.com.au/news/world/nerve-gas-attack-was-planned-for-london-underground-mi5/2006/06/04/1149359612975.html
"
Nerve gas attack was planned for London Underground: MI5

Terrorists were planning a chemical attack in London similar to that on the Tokyo subway, police and the security services said.

MI5 agents suspect that al-Qaeda sympathisers intended to produce a nerve agent - probably sarin - and release it in a confined space, such as a train carriage, to maximise the number of casualties.

The sarin attack on three railway lines in the Japanese capital killed 12 people and injured more than 5000 in March 1994. Sarin, a nerve agent that attacks the respiratory system, was used in the attack.

Security sources said it was suspected that a new atrocity was planned on, or close to, the anniversary of the July 7 attacks on London, when four terrorists killed themselves and 52 others, and injured more than 700 people. This would have provided a rallying call to al-Qaeda sympathisers to carry on their jihad against the West.

Officers are still questioning two men after a raid on a house in east London. They searched a house and two workplaces on Saturday for traces of a possible chemical bomb.

The men arrested early on Friday are brothers: Abul Kahar Kalam, 23, and Abul Koyair Kalam, 20.

The elder brother was shot in the shoulder during a police raid at 4am. He was later arrested under the Terrorism Act after being treated for the gunshot wound. His injuries are not life threatening.

Police sources said they were searching for an "improvised device rather than a sophisticated weapon" that was capable of releasing chemicals."

So much for your naive nonsense, the threat is real.
Accusing people of crimes without evidence is perhaps the simplest answer, but frankly is crude and against the principle that our laws are based on.
It is Stupid, so don't get yourself labelled that way by supporting such nonsense, if you do, that is entirely your own fault.
You can't run a civilised society on Justice administered without evidence.

 

[oldgroaner]

And as normal Tom's posts were out of date as he posted then. Initially Macron refused to point finger at Russians. He changed his stance somewhat yesterday. His statement/ speech left no doubt he thought Russians were responsible. This quote lifted from Times...
"In a rare joint statement, Theresa May, French President Emmanuel Macron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and US President Donald Trump declared there is "no plausible alternative explanation" other than Russia being responsible."

This has made Russia change its position slightly. They are now saying they have been made scapegoat by the world...apart from a barmy few ofcourse.

And still no proof.

 

[Zlatan]

Is this the best you can do? tell, ho did the Japanese terrorists get hold of Sarin?
Perhaps you should close your mouth and open your mind
https://www.smh.com.au/news/world/nerve-gas-attack-was-planned-for-london-underground-mi5/2006/06/04/1149359612975.html
"
Nerve gas attack was planned for London Underground: MI5

Terrorists were planning a chemical attack in London similar to that on the Tokyo subway, police and the security services said.

MI5 agents suspect that al-Qaeda sympathisers intended to produce a nerve agent - probably sarin - and release it in a confined space, such as a train carriage, to maximise the number of casualties.

The sarin attack on three railway lines in the Japanese capital killed 12 people and injured more than 5000 in March 1994. Sarin, a nerve agent that attacks the respiratory system, was used in the attack.

Security sources said it was suspected that a new atrocity was planned on, or close to, the anniversary of the July 7 attacks on London, when four terrorists killed themselves and 52 others, and injured more than 700 people. This would have provided a rallying call to al-Qaeda sympathisers to carry on their jihad against the West.

Officers are still questioning two men after a raid on a house in east London. They searched a house and two workplaces on Saturday for traces of a possible chemical bomb.

The men arrested early on Friday are brothers: Abul Kahar Kalam, 23, and Abul Koyair Kalam, 20.

The elder brother was shot in the shoulder during a police raid at 4am. He was later arrested under the Terrorism Act after being treated for the gunshot wound. His injuries are not life threatening.

Police sources said they were searching for an "improvised device rather than a sophisticated weapon" that was capable of releasing chemicals."

So much for your naive nonsense, the threat is real.

You initially said Novichok ...and in a garage..Changed to Sarin by terrorists..
The Novichok was military grade and made in Russia.

 

[Zlatan]

And still no proof.

Tell Macron and company but you know more than all their advisers??