Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
I'm not certain I understand your question, but meanwhile can say the majority of the USA. The Americans' phobic hatred and fear of communism has meant they've never really accepted that USSR style communism is dead. The outcome is a general policy of mistrusting opposition to Russia with warlike implications.
The Russian reaction under Putin is to make that belief assume some truth.
Cold War mark two?
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I think the UK government knows exactly how it is going to work, we are not going to control our borders any more than we do now.
We only have land border with the EU in two places: Channel Tunnel and NI.
If the EU wants borders, then they can put them up their side.
It's just a matter of how to sell it to the voters.
Because the French customs is likely to be at Dover,the same as the English customs is at Calais. The French will stop the trucks at Dover getting on the train or ferries unless the receiver has paid the duty.Otherwise the trucks will be stuck on the ferry or the train unable to leave the dock.
When I bring goods in from China my containers are held at Felixstowe unless I have pre paid the duty.
But Grayling definitely said there will be no truck checks at Dover,he didnt say which direction those trucks are coming from.
KudosDave
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I didn't realise I was beginning to sound like you: thank's for the warning,
I have this annoying habit of not being able to jump to the wrong conclusion with the mastery you can command.
Is it an Amateur talent, or a paid profession?
Danidl.....Under the terms of the Le Touquet agreement, in which juxtaposed border and immigration controls are in force on either side of the Channel, France has the power to carry out checks on outbound vehicles at Dover.
KudosDave
KudosDave
Which one of the Russians (in excess of 143.96 million of them) did you have evidence actually did the deed?
OG
Not many posts ago you told us the victims of this poisoning were only incapacitated to level fools in your home town inflict on themselves. That is heartless and completely misses the point. The victims are unlikely to recover and their injuries were inflicted upon them. ( one report I read suggested they would be better off dead)
Imagine how you,d feel if one of your relatives had been poisoned and some silly old fool posted..." well its only to level of that the idiots in my town inflict on themselves"( They probably do it to get out of your company)
You last comment is not worth replying to...but to be fair none of your posts are, I really dont know why I bother..
As for jumping to conclusions...sort of like rest of civilised educated informed world.
I,ve said all along.." I think Putin is guilty" Would I act on it ? I don't know but glad I dont have to. I,m expressing an opinion OG..not going to war, not sentencing anyone to death, not even arguing about it. I think he organised it. Nope, not a fact. An OPINION shared by the majority.
Now can you OGle on another topic preferably somewhere else..how about in Russia.
PS
You have bucket loads of annoying habits.
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Your ability to utterly ignore the contents of my posts and substitute pompous and sanctimonious claptrap out of your imagination remains a source of surprise, feel free not to respond to my posts, as quite frankly you are never on topic, and have nothing but your own bigotted views on individuals you loathe to justify your naive world view.
When I point out the obvious flaws of the information we are being fed on the assumption we are gullible enough not to question what are to anyone with half a brain inconsistent and indeed, day by day contradictory so called facts, and more and more unlikely scenarios, you rant and rave and start name calling.
And why? because I want to stick to the agreed protocols and rule of law, and you are a self styled Vigilante.
I have not said that Putin isn't a suspect, simply that we need to go though the proper channels and have more that your hatred to go on.
Simply because you have a limited imagination and cannot conceive of anything other than far too convenient answers being true, doesn't mean that others have no right to disagree with you.
This pompous rant accuses most of governments around world...
We,ll call time on this then OG..
Lets see who can go longest without resorting to insult...???
And BTW I have no problem whatsoever with folk holding opposing OPINIONS...myself Flecc ; Tillson and,Danidl have all disagreed with one another on this subject without any of this garbage.
And BTW I,ll repeat my premise. I think Putin did it...But I also think a measured response is appropriate..
For information.. A very good review.
"Let’s say hard evidence emerges that Russia was in fact responsible for the suspected attack on Sergei Skripal, the former Russian military intelligence officer who spied for MI6, and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury. Comparisons have inevitably been drawn with Alexander Litvinenko, the Russian dissident and former intelligence officer poisoned by a dose of radioactive polonium-210 in London – an operation British intelligence quickly became convinced had been planned in the Kremlin.
In 2010, Skripal was swapped in an exchange for 10 Russian spies being held in the US. But Russian intelligence officers can be unforgiving. And if they were responsible for the attack on Skripal, they could well have had a nod and a wink from Putin himself. A public inquiry into Litvinenko’s murder concluded in 2016, a full 10 years after the event, that there was a “strong probability” that the Russian security service the FSB was responsible for Litvinenko’s fatal poisoning, and that Putin “probably” approved it. The Russian ambassador was summoned to the Foreign Office, and the assets of the two main suspects, Andrei Lugovoi and Dmitry Kovtun, were frozen. Litvinenko’s widow, Marina, chided the British government for not doing so.
The former head of MI6 said 'Engaging with the Russians was not being nice with them, but being tough'
What could the British government do now if there was evidence that Moscow was involved in the attack on Skripal, short of indulging in hand-wringing rhetoric? Economic sanctions have already been imposed in response to Putin’s military incursions into Ukraine. A number of Russian individuals and Putin’s cronies may have been hit by them, but Putin
not so much.
Perhaps the government could break off diplomatic relations, indulge in a tit-for-tat expulsion of spies. But this would risk playing into Putin’s hands. He has cultivated the Russian view that the west has sought to humiliate Russia ever since the fall of the Soviet Union. It is not surprising that he revels in trying to humiliate the west in return. And for Putin, a Britain – preoccupied and divided by Brexit, with its diplomatic, economic, and military clout eroding – is a prime target. This does not mean he was definitely involved with the awful attack on Skripal; just that if there was any suggestion that he was, he would ignore any British protests, even mock them – especially now, as he looks forward to being re-elected Russian president later this month.
"
From the Guardian.
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Then stop writing Garbage.
How on Earth did you connect this comment of mine aimed AT YOU
"Your ability to utterly ignore the contents of my posts and substitute pompous and sanctimonious claptrap out of your imagination remains a source of surprise,
And alter it to this?
"This pompous rant accuses most of governments around world..."
Who is accusing Governments of the world of anything?
What is wrong with you? you are simply writing nonsense now, utterly at random.
Once again you are showing some very disturbing behaviour,for your own sake,stop.
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Earlier this week, we revealed that US spy agencies had handed the British government high-grade intelligence that the Russian whistleblower Alexander Perepilichnyy, who died in Surrey in 2012, was likely assassinated on the direct orders of the Kremlin – but the authorities sidelined that and other evidence pointing to murder, instead declaring that he had died of natural causes. Today, we can reveal that US intelligence officials suspect a further 13 people – including Berezovsky and eight members of his circle – have been assassinated on British soil by Russia’s security services or mafia groups, two forces that sometimes work in tandem.
That intelligence – based on human sources, intercepted communications, and public material gathered by US spy agencies – has been shared with Britain in relation to all 14 deaths. Yet British police have ruled out foul play in every last case.
???
OG
You are missing the big picture..
That intelligence – based on human sources, intercepted communications, and public material gathered by US spy agencies – has been shared with Britain in relation to all 14 deaths. Yet British police have ruled out foul play in every last case.
???
OG
You are missing the big picture..
And from the Washington Post..
Spy poisoning is latest in string of suspicious cases in UK
By Gregory Katz | AP
March 10
LONDON — Britain offers wealthy Russians many attractions: the great city of London, the bucolic countryside, exclusive schools, and a global financial hub. But for some former spies and other foes of President Vladimir Putin, it has become lethal.
The latest victims near death’s door are 66-year-old Sergei Skripal — a former colonel in Russia’s military intelligence service, then a turncoat helping British agents who was convicted in Russia before being freed in a spy swap— and his 33-year-old daughter, Yulia. Both were found comatose on a public bench Sunday in the medieval English city of Salisbury.
British officials say they were exposed to a rare nerve agent of undetermined origin. Their prognosis is unclear; officials have not said if they have suffered irreversible damage.
Some lawmakers and a former top law enforcement official say the nerve agent attack fits a pattern of suspicious deaths in the U.K. and in the United States. They are calling for a high-level police investigation into whether Britain has become a killing ground for the state-sanctioned elimination of enemies of the Russian government.
The deaths that have caused qualms include a man who was impaled through the chest by the spikes of an iron fence; a former Putin aide found dead in a Washington hotel room with blunt force injuries; and an ex-spy poisoned by radioactive tea.
British officials have not openly blamed the Russian government for the brazen assault of the Skripals, but it is raising hard questions on how to deal with Russian aggression — even as officials in the U.S. are trying to determine how to respond to Russian interference in U.S. elections.
Several politicians, analysts and intelligence agencies believe the case of Skripal, who moved to Britain after he was freed in a 2010 spy swap, may prove to be the work of the Russian government, Russian organized crime groups, or a fluid alliance of the two.
“Russian leaders seem to go out of their way to get rid of anybody that seems to be in their way, someone who’s betrayed them, someone who’s interrupting the money flow, and they don’t seem to care about borders. They just go wherever they have to go to get their guy,” said Joe Serio, the American author of “Investigating the Russian Mafia,” who spent nearly ten years with the anti-organized crime unit of Moscow’s police.
“Britain happens to be one of the central places where Russians flee. It’s the gateway to the West, the seat of the language, the seat of the empire, the seat of major finance,” Serio said.
Yvette Cooper, chairwoman of the U.K. Parliament committee that reviews police and intelligence matters, and Ian Blair, the former head of London’s Metropolitan Police, both said this week that a string of unexplained deaths must be investigated in light of what happened to Skripal and his daughter.
Cooper cited a 2017 BuzzFeed News investigation of 14 deaths that may have been the result of foul play — including the case of Scot Young. He worked with Putin’s critics before his body was found impaled on railings outside his London apartment in 2014. Police said the case not suspicious at the time and treated Young’s death as an apparent suicide, although the coroner said the evidence was inconclusive.
The Home Affairs committee chairwoman called for the National Crime Agency to scrutinize the 14 deaths in light of reports that U.S. intelligence officials believe they may be linked to Russia — even though British police have not reached the same conclusion in most cases.
We,ve been ignoring it and doing nothing for quite a while now...There is much more than meets the eye and its all been hushed up so far. Hence why our government are fairly sure its Putin..
Do your research OG...
Or was it just coincidence the pair were found by a plain clothes policeman?? Ofcourse not, he was watching them.
We are being kept in dark over all this.
Spy poisoning is latest in string of suspicious cases in UK
By Gregory Katz | AP
March 10
LONDON — Britain offers wealthy Russians many attractions: the great city of London, the bucolic countryside, exclusive schools, and a global financial hub. But for some former spies and other foes of President Vladimir Putin, it has become lethal.
The latest victims near death’s door are 66-year-old Sergei Skripal — a former colonel in Russia’s military intelligence service, then a turncoat helping British agents who was convicted in Russia before being freed in a spy swap— and his 33-year-old daughter, Yulia. Both were found comatose on a public bench Sunday in the medieval English city of Salisbury.
British officials say they were exposed to a rare nerve agent of undetermined origin. Their prognosis is unclear; officials have not said if they have suffered irreversible damage.
Some lawmakers and a former top law enforcement official say the nerve agent attack fits a pattern of suspicious deaths in the U.K. and in the United States. They are calling for a high-level police investigation into whether Britain has become a killing ground for the state-sanctioned elimination of enemies of the Russian government.
The deaths that have caused qualms include a man who was impaled through the chest by the spikes of an iron fence; a former Putin aide found dead in a Washington hotel room with blunt force injuries; and an ex-spy poisoned by radioactive tea.
British officials have not openly blamed the Russian government for the brazen assault of the Skripals, but it is raising hard questions on how to deal with Russian aggression — even as officials in the U.S. are trying to determine how to respond to Russian interference in U.S. elections.
Several politicians, analysts and intelligence agencies believe the case of Skripal, who moved to Britain after he was freed in a 2010 spy swap, may prove to be the work of the Russian government, Russian organized crime groups, or a fluid alliance of the two.
“Russian leaders seem to go out of their way to get rid of anybody that seems to be in their way, someone who’s betrayed them, someone who’s interrupting the money flow, and they don’t seem to care about borders. They just go wherever they have to go to get their guy,” said Joe Serio, the American author of “Investigating the Russian Mafia,” who spent nearly ten years with the anti-organized crime unit of Moscow’s police.
“Britain happens to be one of the central places where Russians flee. It’s the gateway to the West, the seat of the language, the seat of the empire, the seat of major finance,” Serio said.
Yvette Cooper, chairwoman of the U.K. Parliament committee that reviews police and intelligence matters, and Ian Blair, the former head of London’s Metropolitan Police, both said this week that a string of unexplained deaths must be investigated in light of what happened to Skripal and his daughter.
Cooper cited a 2017 BuzzFeed News investigation of 14 deaths that may have been the result of foul play — including the case of Scot Young. He worked with Putin’s critics before his body was found impaled on railings outside his London apartment in 2014. Police said the case not suspicious at the time and treated Young’s death as an apparent suicide, although the coroner said the evidence was inconclusive.
The Home Affairs committee chairwoman called for the National Crime Agency to scrutinize the 14 deaths in light of reports that U.S. intelligence officials believe they may be linked to Russia — even though British police have not reached the same conclusion in most cases.
We,ve been ignoring it and doing nothing for quite a while now...There is much more than meets the eye and its all been hushed up so far. Hence why our government are fairly sure its Putin..
Do your research OG...
Or was it just coincidence the pair were found by a plain clothes policeman?? Ofcourse not, he was watching them.
We are being kept in dark over all this.
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The police are seeing the big picture. They and Special Branch in communication with MI5 are no doubt aware that this story and allegations are nothing more than anti-Russian propaganda for political purposes, so as advised by military intelligence they don't waste time and rule out foul play.
Perhaps you may have noted that in Salisbury the police have adopted a very cautious approach and played no part in the political accusations. Currently another Russian dissident has been found murdered, this time by strangulation in London, but the police have already said they are not connecting the case to the Salisbury one.
It's important to separate political actions and reality, and that is what the police are doing, obviously with the approval of the accusing politicians. The objective of the propaganda accusations is to discredit Russia in the populations eyes, not to seek court cases or justice, as Mrs Litvinenko knows and has complained of.
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Perhaps Flecc.Lets hope so..Why should Buzz feed investigation ( and Washington Post) be anti Russian ? DT certainly isn't.
And that's now 15 deaths plus the 2 in hospital ??( if strangulation case isn't included in first count)
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The key for me is that the politicians seem entirely happy for their own police to rule out foul play while they, the politicians in charge of those police, are saying the opposite.
That to me looks like fact and fiction juxtaposed by agreement.
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I suspect powers that be must act on this incident but the last one was suspicious at best.
A young man committing suicide ( only police saying that, coroner pronounced open verdict) by launching himself onto iron railings seems at best a guess and worse a cover up..I suppose thinking being Russian,s killing a Russian is nothing to do with our police...but we wont know ( or even get a definitive answer) for years...on any of these cases.
A young man committing suicide ( only police saying that, coroner pronounced open verdict) by launching himself onto iron railings seems at best a guess and worse a cover up..I suppose thinking being Russian,s killing a Russian is nothing to do with our police...but we wont know ( or even get a definitive answer) for years...on any of these cases.
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"UK police have launched a murder investigation after the death of Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov in south-west London.
Mr Glushkov was found dead at his home in New Malden on 12 March.
A post-mortem examination revealed Mr Glushkov, who was 68, died from "compression to the neck".
There is, at this stage, no evidence linking the death to the attempted murder of a former Russian spy and his daughter in Salisbury, police say.
Detectives are retaining an open mind and are appealing for any information that will assist the investigation.
In particular, they are appealing for anyone who may have seen or heard anything suspicious at or near his home in Clarence Avenue, New Malden, between Sunday 11 March and Monday 12 March to contact them.
A blue and purple tent has been put up over the front drive of the house as police continue to guard the scene.
Mr Glushkov is the former deputy director of Russian state airline Aeroflot.
He was jailed in 1999 for five years after being charged with money laundering and fraud.
Profile: Who was Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov?
Counter-terror police investigate 'unexplained' death
Russia spy poisoning: Rudd says inquiry widened to other deaths
Sergei Skripal and the 14 deaths under scrutiny
Vladimir Putin most likely behind Salisbury attack, says Boris Johnson
After being given a suspended sentence for another count of fraud in 2006, he was granted political asylum in the UK in 2010 and became a critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Kate Fitzsimmons, an 87-year-old neighbour of Mr Glushkov, said he was "just an ordinary friendly Englishman" who would wave at her across the road.
She said his death and the subsequent police activity was a "big shock".
Mr Glushkov had a close friendship with fellow Russian businessman Boris Berezovsky, who came to the UK in 1999 after falling out with Mr Putin."
Is this coincidence, conspiracy or Putin ???
Quote from Guardian on line.
Mr Glushkov was found dead at his home in New Malden on 12 March.
A post-mortem examination revealed Mr Glushkov, who was 68, died from "compression to the neck".
There is, at this stage, no evidence linking the death to the attempted murder of a former Russian spy and his daughter in Salisbury, police say.
Detectives are retaining an open mind and are appealing for any information that will assist the investigation.
In particular, they are appealing for anyone who may have seen or heard anything suspicious at or near his home in Clarence Avenue, New Malden, between Sunday 11 March and Monday 12 March to contact them.
A blue and purple tent has been put up over the front drive of the house as police continue to guard the scene.
Mr Glushkov is the former deputy director of Russian state airline Aeroflot.
He was jailed in 1999 for five years after being charged with money laundering and fraud.
Profile: Who was Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov?Counter-terror police investigate 'unexplained' deathRussia spy poisoning: Rudd says inquiry widened to other deathsSergei Skripal and the 14 deaths under scrutinyVladimir Putin most likely behind Salisbury attack, says Boris JohnsonAfter being given a suspended sentence for another count of fraud in 2006, he was granted political asylum in the UK in 2010 and became a critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Kate Fitzsimmons, an 87-year-old neighbour of Mr Glushkov, said he was "just an ordinary friendly Englishman" who would wave at her across the road.
She said his death and the subsequent police activity was a "big shock".
Mr Glushkov had a close friendship with fellow Russian businessman Boris Berezovsky, who came to the UK in 1999 after falling out with Mr Putin."
Is this coincidence, conspiracy or Putin ???
Quote from Guardian on line.
He/she/it is an internet troll and this kind of posting and general behaviour is the unchanging MO of all trolls.
Tom
The problem Zlatan is that these Oligarchs as we call them are actually criminals and gangsters. As the USSR broke up they and their henchmen seized assets, often by murdering the rightful owners or administrators, making themselves immensely wealthy.
Like gangs everywhere they were rivals and frequently hated each other to the extent of murder. Having stashed enough money some fled each other to come to Britain, and then when Putin took power and set about the eight wealthiest oligarchs still in Russia, many more fled.
So we have these two different rival factions, plus a third one they also hate, the ex KGB agents, all potentially at war with each other.
Take this example. Oligarch Boris Berezovsky fled Putin to London to preserve his corruptly obtained cash that Putin was after and remained a bitter and vocal opposer of Putin for the rest of his life and thus liked by our politicians.
Berezovsky was a fellow Duma member with Roman Abramovich and they stole vast fortunes from the Russian state as Yeltsin's administration collapsed. But then arch villain Abramovich stole one of Berezovsly's richest oil company assets and became hated by Berezovsky. In the midst of all this Litvinenko as a KGB agent upset Berezovsky enough to him to earn bitter hatred, possibly by revelations to Putin.
When Litvinenko was murdered Berezsovsky was a prime police suspect until the politicians got involved, started accusing the Russian state and propaganda took over. As I've explained in a previous post about that polonium 210 killing, all the released evidence was completely false, but good enough for a public who didn't understand the subject.
Personally I think Berezovsky had Litvinenko murdered, he was a first order thug with huge wealth, a foul temper and a vicious streak, and the means were freely available as I've explained. Berezovsky had actually taken Abramovich to court in Britain to try to recover the stolen oil assets but failed. This is what the judge said about Berezovsky:
Last August, however, Mrs Justice Gloster, who presided over their high court battle, came to a different conclusion. Her verdict was devastating for Berezovsky. In withering terms, she dismissed Berezovsky's case. She described him as "dishonest" and "deluded". Her thinking was remorseless: "On my analysis of the entirety of the evidence, I found Mr Berezovsky an unimpressive, and inherently unreliable, witness, who regarded truth as a transitory, flexible concept, which could be moulded to suit his current purposes."
So I hope you can see why in this situation of three factions of so many mutually hating Russian criminal gangsters in Britain I find it hard to accept that they are not guilty of many of the reprisal killings against each other and that Putin alone is.
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