war of words aside, there is a case for the UK government to act on probability.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Speculation in the Telegraph this morning
Suitcase spy poisoning plot: nerve agent 'was planted in luggage of Sergei Skripal's daughter'
The nerve agent that poisoned the Russian spy Sergei Skripal was planted in his daughter’s suitcase before she left Moscow, intelligence agencies now believe.
Senior sources have told the Telegraph they are convinced the Novichok nerve agent was hidden in the luggage of Yulia Skripal, the double agent’s 33-year-old daughter.
They are working on the theory that the toxin was impregnated in an item of clothing or cosmetics or else in a gift that was opened in his house in Salisbury, meaning Miss Skripal was deliberately targeted to get at her father."
And then they managed to go out and have a meal together etc?
And of course an earlier Daily Mail report was this
"
Will police dig up the remains of Russian spy's wife? Detectives 'remove items' after descending on the graveyard where Sergei Skripal's relatives are buried as the military rolls into the city for nerve agent clean-up operation
Mr Skripal and his daughter are thought to have visited the graves after she flew to the UK from her home in Moscow days before she and her father were poisoned.
Protected police officers, fire crews and ambulances swarmed the cemetery, eventually taking flowers and trinkets from the Skripal gravesides and taking them by military convoy to Salisbury District Hospital."
so this assumes they were poisoned Days earlier?
Hardly fits with a Deadly Nerve agent, does it?
Suitcase spy poisoning plot: nerve agent 'was planted in luggage of Sergei Skripal's daughter'
The nerve agent that poisoned the Russian spy Sergei Skripal was planted in his daughter’s suitcase before she left Moscow, intelligence agencies now believe.
Senior sources have told the Telegraph they are convinced the Novichok nerve agent was hidden in the luggage of Yulia Skripal, the double agent’s 33-year-old daughter.
They are working on the theory that the toxin was impregnated in an item of clothing or cosmetics or else in a gift that was opened in his house in Salisbury, meaning Miss Skripal was deliberately targeted to get at her father."
And then they managed to go out and have a meal together etc?
And of course an earlier Daily Mail report was this
"
Will police dig up the remains of Russian spy's wife? Detectives 'remove items' after descending on the graveyard where Sergei Skripal's relatives are buried as the military rolls into the city for nerve agent clean-up operation
Mr Skripal and his daughter are thought to have visited the graves after she flew to the UK from her home in Moscow days before she and her father were poisoned.
Protected police officers, fire crews and ambulances swarmed the cemetery, eventually taking flowers and trinkets from the Skripal gravesides and taking them by military convoy to Salisbury District Hospital."
so this assumes they were poisoned Days earlier?
Hardly fits with a Deadly Nerve agent, does it?
Absolutely! by complying with the ten day protocol and having a Robust dialogue, not screaming in rage to gain support.
it seems that our government feeds deliberately titbits to the media so that the right wing newspapers can speculate on them to create fake news.
Not much in terms of concrete evidence has been made public. The source, chemical characteristics and delivery of the poison are still not determined.
Not much in terms of concrete evidence has been made public. The source, chemical characteristics and delivery of the poison are still not determined.
Why don't you just give up and do some thinking instead of reacting for once?
What is under discussion here is whether we have made an appropriate reaction to the situation, and we haven't simply taken the attitude that Guilt without evidence will do.
What has emerged is this
- The actual existence of Novichoc cannot be confirmed
- It is made up from readily available legal agri chemicals
- One of the Scientists involved is recorded as having said it can be simply manufactured if you know the formula
- Whatever was used was clearly far less potent than the claims made for the weaponised Nerve agent
- The latest theory that the daughter brought it in from Moscow doesn't explain why they were able to go around the town before suddenly collapsing, so really no one knows how it was administered
Would you like to be convicted on the word of Mrs May without the proper process of law being followed?
Well, would you?
the measures TM has taken so far are measured.
You are absolutely right and it is being played for all it's worth.
But Zlatan is happy to go along with this as he hates Putin
Bigotry is a great time saver
It allows you to make decisions
Without bothering with the Facts
The Government should be seeking the truth, not Pronouncing it as if they have a holy right and patent on it.
Good grief! I wouldn't like to see her being extreme!
The measures are indeed limited, but the Verbal Messages far from it!
you should compare her language against the kind of language you may hear when neighbours are engaged in disputes.
A headline for the simple minded from the Express
"
Theresa May has finally stepped up for her country - EXPRESS COMMENT
COMETH the hour, cometh the woman.
Can they really be that gullible?
Yes, it worked for Maggie, didn't it.
"
Theresa May has finally stepped up for her country - EXPRESS COMMENT
COMETH the hour, cometh the woman.
Can they really be that gullible?
Yes, it worked for Maggie, didn't it.
Very true, unfortunately, but the results can be a just a little more damaging.
And the Daily Mail printed this
"
After thirteen days, do detectives really STILL not know how spy was poisoned? Now police say his daughter might have brought it from Russia in her suitcase - but it is just the latest of a series of bizarre theories
Now, it is understood investigators have turned their attentions to Yulia's suitcase in a bid to find out exactly how she and her father ended up fighting for their lives after falling unconscious on March 4.
But Scotland Yard's top officers are still keeping the public in the dark and a series of conflicting leaks from the investigation suggests they are no nearer the truth.
Police know Sergei Skripal parked on the first floor of Sainsbury's car park at 1.40pm. He and his daughter Yulia visited The Mill pub before arriving at Zizzi at 2.20pm, dining, and leaving at 3.35pm. They were potentially picked up on CCTV on Market Walk at 3.47pm before being found slumped on a bench at 4.15pm. The new footage shows Skripal driving past the Devizes Inn, which is equidistant from Sainsbury's to his home in Christie Miller Road, though it is not known where he had driven from nor when he was poisoned
So there we have it, a non lethal agent that takes apparently half an hour to have a limited effect,
A substance that cannot possibly be positively identified as a weapons grade Nerve agent it wassn't powerful enough or fast enough acting,and not lethal on contact.
No one knows where it came from and who administered it.
Or even if Novichok actually exists.
Something did but who made it? it could be anyone.
Even in the Daily Mail a lot of readers are not buying the government line and saying why are we not seeking evidence?
"
After thirteen days, do detectives really STILL not know how spy was poisoned? Now police say his daughter might have brought it from Russia in her suitcase - but it is just the latest of a series of bizarre theories
- Police appear no nearer any concrete answers on how the poisoning happened
- Leaks from the investigation in Salisbury have thrown up a number of theories
- Among them are food poisoning and substance being posted through his door
- Sergei Skripal, 66, and his daughter, 33, are still fighting for their lives in hospital
Now, it is understood investigators have turned their attentions to Yulia's suitcase in a bid to find out exactly how she and her father ended up fighting for their lives after falling unconscious on March 4.
But Scotland Yard's top officers are still keeping the public in the dark and a series of conflicting leaks from the investigation suggests they are no nearer the truth.
Police know Sergei Skripal parked on the first floor of Sainsbury's car park at 1.40pm. He and his daughter Yulia visited The Mill pub before arriving at Zizzi at 2.20pm, dining, and leaving at 3.35pm. They were potentially picked up on CCTV on Market Walk at 3.47pm before being found slumped on a bench at 4.15pm. The new footage shows Skripal driving past the Devizes Inn, which is equidistant from Sainsbury's to his home in Christie Miller Road, though it is not known where he had driven from nor when he was poisoned
So there we have it, a non lethal agent that takes apparently half an hour to have a limited effect,
A substance that cannot possibly be positively identified as a weapons grade Nerve agent it wassn't powerful enough or fast enough acting,and not lethal on contact.
No one knows where it came from and who administered it.
Or even if Novichok actually exists.
Something did but who made it? it could be anyone.
Even in the Daily Mail a lot of readers are not buying the government line and saying why are we not seeking evidence?
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The current row has been boiling under the surface since Russian intervention in Syria.
NATO has to deal with a superpower that it cannot militarily humiliate nor defeat. Now it seems that Putin has won in Syria.
This is just getting back at Russia in any way possible.
Offensive language tillson? really? how on earth?
you have been implying the very same thing!
If this were a less powerful country, say Argentina, I have no doubt the stupid bitch in Downing St would by now have ordered the joint chiefs of staff to organise a battle group headed for the south Atlantic.
At the current stage of affairs with the 'Brexit' fiasco, this little incident in Salisbury has proved to be a godsend for May as it takes the heat off her for a little while - that's why she is milking it for all she can get out of it.
Let's briefly take stock:
a) Two Russians are ill in Salisbury - nerve agent suspected.
b) UK government makes wild allegations without any proof.
c) May orders the expulsion of a group of Russian diplomats.
d) Russia will probably retaliate on a tit-for-tat basis.
e) Eleven days after the incident, nobody has died from this deadly nerve agent.
Any sense of proportion has gone out the window - all we need now is the tory media to connect Jeremy Corbyn with the perpetrators of this incident and if they can, they will!
Perhaps the daughter brought the stuff in from Russia as she and her father intended to commit suicide together? That is every bit as plausible as the theory selected by May and Co. Like May though, I too have no evidence to support that possibility!
Tom
Military grade that only incapacitates?
Oh sure
A lot of the cheap drugs the low life here take on the streets are deadlier than that!
Do read the words of my post. I said the Japanese terrorists used Sarin as an example of what extremists could either get, buy or synthesise. and many people died in the attack, yet Novichok is supposed to be ten times as Toxic.
It wasn't, was it?
Either the Toxicity has been overrated, the substance badly applied, or is was some else with similar but less effective properties.
The whole story has more holes than a Colander and is about as watertight.
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And now Zlatan is hitting the offensive language button, how childish
They are rather more than incapicatated.
You are sounding like a silly old fool...unfortunately for the rest of us a lot.
You are sounding like a silly old fool...unfortunately for the rest of us a lot.
From what I've read its a two part substance (powder) that comes into its own when combined.
So one part could have been applied to say car passenger and driver door handles and the other on say a delivered bunch of flowers.
So after getting in & out the car and getting it on their skin, it would only take sniffing the flowers for the nerve agent to be activated. Whoever did it would be long gone...
So one part could have been applied to say car passenger and driver door handles and the other on say a delivered bunch of flowers.
So after getting in & out the car and getting it on their skin, it would only take sniffing the flowers for the nerve agent to be activated. Whoever did it would be long gone...
Instead of facts emerging and clarity beginning to dawn, the picture is becoming less clear as time passes. The latest revelation that the poison was planted whilst his daughter was in Russia opens up many more possibilities, potential suspects and throws into question who the intended victim was and even which country the attack was carried out in.And the Daily Mail printed this
"
After thirteen days, do detectives really STILL not know how spy was poisoned? Now police say his daughter might have brought it from Russia in her suitcase - but it is just the latest of a series of bizarre theories
Theories banded around in the past fortnight include food poisoning, a bouquet of flowers laced with the deadly substance Novichok and the lethal toxin being smeared on the former agent's car door handle.
- Police appear no nearer any concrete answers on how the poisoning happened
- Leaks from the investigation in Salisbury have thrown up a number of theories
- Among them are food poisoning and substance being posted through his door
- Sergei Skripal, 66, and his daughter, 33, are still fighting for their lives in hospital
Now, it is understood investigators have turned their attentions to Yulia's suitcase in a bid to find out exactly how she and her father ended up fighting for their lives after falling unconscious on March 4.
But Scotland Yard's top officers are still keeping the public in the dark and a series of conflicting leaks from the investigation suggests they are no nearer the truth.
Police know Sergei Skripal parked on the first floor of Sainsbury's car park at 1.40pm. He and his daughter Yulia visited The Mill pub before arriving at Zizzi at 2.20pm, dining, and leaving at 3.35pm. They were potentially picked up on CCTV on Market Walk at 3.47pm before being found slumped on a bench at 4.15pm. The new footage shows Skripal driving past the Devizes Inn, which is equidistant from Sainsbury's to his home in Christie Miller Road, though it is not known where he had driven from nor when he was poisoned
So there we have it, a non lethal agent that takes apparently half an hour to have a limited effect,
A substance that cannot possibly be positively identified as a weapons grade Nerve agent it wassn't powerful enough or fast enough acting,and not lethal on contact.
No one knows where it came from and who administered it.
Or even if Novichok actually exists.
Something did but who made it? it could be anyone.
The latest information regarding the poison being planted before the daughter left Russia makes it entirely possible that this was never intended to be an attack carried out on UK soil. The intent could have been to kill her inside Russia before she left for the UK, if the attacker even knew she intended to travel to the UK in the first place.
In this particular case, the slow acting nature of the poison also seems to be at odds with what we are told about the supposed toxicity of this material. Many aspects of this case don't stack up and there seems to be many contradictory factors.
Turning to Nick Bailey, the police officer who seems to have been poisoned as a result of being one of the first on the scene, something doesn't seem quite right there either. As far as I know, Nick Bailey is a Detective Sergeant, a non-uniform investigation supervisor, not a response officer. This incident would most likely have been reported as a man and woman in a park feeling unwell / semi-conscious / vomiting etc. No one would have had the slightest inkling that a nerve agent was responsible. That thought wouldn't even have been in anyone's mind, so why send a Detective Sergeant, unless he was off-duty and happened to be passing by? In 99.999% of cases like this, a regular copper or PCSO would be the first line of response. They would have stood around for a bit, scratched their heads, scratched their @rses, maybe tried a but of CPR etc. The Detectives normally arrive much later in the process, not as first line response. Anyway, I hope he soon recovers or else he will be on half pay after six months and no pay after twelve. That was one of Theresa May's gifts to the police service to show how proud and grateful she for the essential and difficult work done by the emergency services.
I continue to be impressed by Jeremy Corbyn for continuing his stance and insistence that proper processes are followed and that people don't jump to hasty conclusions. This is particularly noteworthy because he is not allowed himself to be bullied into line by the newspapers and popular opinion. This is actually leadership we are witnessing. A man with a view and an opinion, which he knows may not be popular thinking, but he puts out into the public domain and defends it in the face of bullying and insults.
I think the governments response is starting to show signs of being premature & uncoordinated and now it's starting to smell of fish. No change, no change, situation normal.
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