Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

The problem Zlatan is that these Oligarchs as we call them are actually criminals and gangsters. As the USSR broke up they and their henchmen seized assets, often by murdering the rightful owners or administrators, making themselves immensely wealthy.

Like gangs everywhere they were rivals and frequently hated each other to the extent of murder. Having stashed enough money some fled each other to come to Britain, and then when Putin took power and set about the eight wealthiest oligarchs still in Russia, many more fled.

So we have these two different rival factions, plus a third one they also hate, the ex KGB agents, all potentially at war with each other.

Take this example. Oligarch Boris Berezovsky fled Putin to London to preserve his corruptly obtained cash that Putin was after and remained a bitter and vocal opposer of Putin for the rest of his life and thus liked by our politicians.

Berezovsky was a fellow Duma member with Roman Abramovich and they stole vast fortunes from the Russian state as Yeltsin's administration collapsed. But then arch villain Abramovich stole one of Berezovsly's richest oil company assets and became hated by Berezovsky. In rhe midst of all this Litvinenko as a KGB agent upset Berezovsky enough to him to earn bitter hatred, possibly by revelations to Putin.

When Litvinenko was murdered Berezsovsky was a prime police suspect until the politicians got involved, started accusing the Russian state and propaganda took over. As I've explained in a previous post about that polonium 210 killing, all the released evidence was completely false, but good enough for a public who didn't understand the subject.

Personally I think Berezovsky had Litvinenko murdered, he was a first order thug with huge wealth, a foul temper and a vicious streak, and the means were freely available as I've explained. Berezovsky had actually taken Abramovich to court in Britain to try to recover the stolen oil assets but failed. This is what the judge said about Berezovsky:

Last August, however, Mrs Justice Gloster, who presided over their high court battle, came to a different conclusion. Her verdict was devastating for Berezovsky. In withering terms, she dismissed Berezovsky's case. She described him as "dishonest" and "deluded". Her thinking was remorseless: "On my analysis of the entirety of the evidence, I found Mr Berezovsky an unimpressive, and inherently unreliable, witness, who regarded truth as a transitory, flexible concept, which could be moulded to suit his current purposes."

So I hope you can see why in this situation of three factions of so many mutually hating Russian criminal gangsters in Britain I find it hard to accept that they are not guilty of many of the reprisal killings and that Putin alone is.
.

Don't bother him with facts. his mind was made up long ago.
Nothing will shake his determination that Putin is responsible.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG
Not many posts ago you told us the victims of this poisoning were only incapacitated to level fools in your home town inflict on themselves. That is heartless and completely misses the point. The victims are unlikely to recover and their injuries were inflicted upon them. ( one report I read suggested they would be better off dead)
Imagine how you,d feel if one of your relatives had been poisoned and some silly old fool posted..." well its only to level of that the idiots in my town inflict on themselves"( They probably do it to get out of your company)

You last comment is not worth replying to...but to be fair none of your posts are, I really dont know why I bother..
As for jumping to conclusions...sort of like rest of civilised educated informed world.
I,ve said all along.." I think Putin is guilty" Would I act on it ? I don't know but glad I dont have to. I,m expressing an opinion OG..not going to war, not sentencing anyone to death, not even arguing about it. I think he organised it. Nope, not a fact. An OPINION shared by the majority.
Now can you OGle on another topic preferably somewhere else..how about in Russia.
PS
You have bucket loads of annoying habits.

A mass of contradiction again
"not even arguing about it." then what are you doing?

 

[Woosh]

Don't bother him with facts. his mind was made up long ago.
Nothing will shake his determination that Putin is responsible.

he's only teasing you.

 

[Danidl]

Danidl.....Under the terms of the Le Touquet agreement, in which juxtaposed border and immigration controls are in force on either side of the Channel, France has the power to carry out checks on outbound vehicles at Dover.
KudosDave

I am assuming that these are collegiate arrangements basically between members of the same team ie the EU team. Post Brexit the game is supposed to change. Mind you we in Ireland have a sweetheart deal with US immigration, where we basically give them a gateway and a space on our airports . Dublin and Shannon and they do their immigration clearance. Once passengers go through that gate they are functionally on US soil and wait in a secure area until boarding directly to US cities... So I do suppose that something like that could be negotiated between friends . Although I can almost see the headlines in the Mail...

 

[Zlatan]

The problem Zlatan is that these Oligarchs as we call them are actually criminals and gangsters. As the USSR broke up they and their henchmen seized assets, often by murdering the rightful owners or administrators, making themselves immensely wealthy.

Like gangs everywhere they were rivals and frequently hated each other to the extent of murder. Having stashed enough money some fled each other to come to Britain, and then when Putin took power and set about the eight wealthiest oligarchs still in Russia, many more fled.

So we have these two different rival factions, plus a third one they also hate, the ex KGB agents, all potentially at war with each other.

Take this example. Oligarch Boris Berezovsky fled Putin to London to preserve his corruptly obtained cash that Putin was after and remained a bitter and vocal opposer of Putin for the rest of his life and thus liked by our politicians.

Berezovsky was a fellow Duma member with Roman Abramovich and they stole vast fortunes from the Russian state as Yeltsin's administration collapsed. But then arch villain Abramovich stole one of Berezovsly's richest oil company assets and became hated by Berezovsky. In the midst of all this Litvinenko as a KGB agent upset Berezovsky enough to him to earn bitter hatred, possibly by revelations to Putin.

When Litvinenko was murdered Berezsovsky was a prime police suspect until the politicians got involved, started accusing the Russian state and propaganda took over. As I've explained in a previous post about that polonium 210 killing, all the released evidence was completely false, but good enough for a public who didn't understand the subject.

Personally I think Berezovsky had Litvinenko murdered, he was a first order thug with huge wealth, a foul temper and a vicious streak, and the means were freely available as I've explained. Berezovsky had actually taken Abramovich to court in Britain to try to recover the stolen oil assets but failed. This is what the judge said about Berezovsky:

Last August, however, Mrs Justice Gloster, who presided over their high court battle, came to a different conclusion. Her verdict was devastating for Berezovsky. In withering terms, she dismissed Berezovsky's case. She described him as "dishonest" and "deluded". Her thinking was remorseless: "On my analysis of the entirety of the evidence, I found Mr Berezovsky an unimpressive, and inherently unreliable, witness, who regarded truth as a transitory, flexible concept, which could be moulded to suit his current purposes."

So I hope you can see why in this situation of three factions of so many mutually hating Russian criminal gangsters in Britain I find it hard to accept that they are not guilty of many of the reprisal killings against each other and that Putin alone is.
.

Good post Flecc...Unfortunately we are in middle of all you describe..it does seem a line has been passed in Salisbury. The crimes have spilled over into public domain or perhaps pushed there.
Do you think Russia/ Putin has followed protocols ?
Do you not think your explanation puts responsibility directly with Russia ?
Can you imagine Russia's reaction if English gangsters were murdering their own in Moscow and at same time putting Russian public at risk ? Would Putin not think ultimate responsibility was with May especially if she was directly involved in the struggles ?

BTW Wiki doesn't agree with your conclusion.( of Berezovsky ordering killing)

.[9] A public inquiry began on 27 January 2015,[10] and concluded in January 2016 that Litvinenko's murder was an FSB operation, that was probably personally approved by Vladimir Putin.[11] ( Can FSB do anything without Putin's approval ?)

This inquiry was only carried out after his girl friend spent years campaigning to get it carried out in Lindon.The enquiry even named killer, asked for his extradition. It was refused. ( Its all in Wiki) It took 12 years to arrive at this conclusion.

 

[Danidl]

I think the UK government knows exactly how it is going to work, we are not going to control our borders any more than we do now.
We only have land border with the EU in two places: Channel Tunnel and NI.
If the EU wants borders, then they can put them up their side.
It's just a matter of how to sell it to the voters.

The EU does not WANT borders. Was it not the warcry of the Brexit supporters that " We want to control our borders"

 

[Zlatan]

The EU does not WANT borders. Was it not the warcry of the Brexit supporters that " We want to control our borders"

Some of them..

 

[Kudoscycles]

I wouldn’t want to be the first truck U.K. to EU,post Brexit.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

Earlier this week, we revealed that US spy agencies had handed the British government high-grade intelligence that the Russian whistleblower Alexander Perepilichnyy, who died in Surrey in 2012, was likely assassinated on the direct orders of the Kremlin – but the authorities sidelined that and other evidence pointing to murder, instead declaring that he had died of natural causes. Today, we can reveal that US intelligence officials suspect a further 13 people – including Berezovsky and eight members of his circle – have been assassinated on British soil by Russia’s security services or mafia groups, two forces that sometimes work in tandem.

That intelligence – based on human sources, intercepted communications, and public material gathered by US spy agencies – has been shared with Britain in relation to all 14 deaths. Yet British police have ruled out foul play in every last case.
???

OG
You are missing the big picture..

All information being as trustworthy as the WMD's in Iraq?

 

[Woosh]

All information being as trustworthy as the WMD's in Iraq?

From the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/16/russian-spy-poisoning-attack-novichok-chemist

Mirzayanov, 83, a chemist who worked with the poison, said:

“I believe they brought binary version. It’s two ampules, small containers, like a big bullet, put them together in a spray or something, and after that, some mechanism which is mixing them, a couple seconds and after that you’re shooting.
It’s extremely poisonous, about 10 times more potent than VX gas, it could touch any skin and in a couple minutes would take effect.”

The first sign of exposure is a shrinkage of pupils and darkening of vision, he said. “After that vomiting, [difficulty] breathing and convulsions.”

An antidote can delay or partially reverse the effects of the poison but would not necessarily save the life of the victim, he said.

it's similar to what you would have seen in movies.
One crucial difference though, the police did not report seeing spasms that would normally be triggered by a nerve agent.

 

[oldgroaner]

"UK police have launched a murder investigation after the death of Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov in south-west London.

Mr Glushkov was found dead at his home in New Malden on 12 March.

A post-mortem examination revealed Mr Glushkov, who was 68, died from "compression to the neck".

There is, at this stage, no evidence linking the death to the attempted murder of a former Russian spy and his daughter in Salisbury, police say.

Detectives are retaining an open mind and are appealing for any information that will assist the investigation.




In particular, they are appealing for anyone who may have seen or heard anything suspicious at or near his home in Clarence Avenue, New Malden, between Sunday 11 March and Monday 12 March to contact them.

A blue and purple tent has been put up over the front drive of the house as police continue to guard the scene.

Mr Glushkov is the former deputy director of Russian state airline Aeroflot.

He was jailed in 1999 for five years after being charged with money laundering and fraud.
Profile: Who was Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov?
Counter-terror police investigate 'unexplained' death
Russia spy poisoning: Rudd says inquiry widened to other deaths
Sergei Skripal and the 14 deaths under scrutiny
Vladimir Putin most likely behind Salisbury attack, says Boris Johnson

After being given a suspended sentence for another count of fraud in 2006, he was granted political asylum in the UK in 2010 and became a critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Kate Fitzsimmons, an 87-year-old neighbour of Mr Glushkov, said he was "just an ordinary friendly Englishman" who would wave at her across the road.

She said his death and the subsequent police activity was a "big shock".

Mr Glushkov had a close friendship with fellow Russian businessman Boris Berezovsky, who came to the UK in 1999 after falling out with Mr Putin."

Is this coincidence, conspiracy or Putin ???

Quote from Guardian on line.

Or Organised crime.
You are not as you would say "Seeing the big picture"

Why would Putin strangle somebody? are the bruises traceable back to a
Nerve Toxin of Russian Manufacture that simulates a pair of Russian Hands strangling someone?

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/16/russian-spy-poisoning-attack-novichok-chemist

Mirzayanov, 83, a chemist who worked with the poison, said:

“I believe they brought binary version. It’s two ampules, small containers, like a big bullet, put them together in a spray or something, and after that, some mechanism which is mixing them, a couple seconds and after that you’re shooting.
It’s extremely poisonous, about 10 times more potent than VX gas, it could touch any skin and in a couple minutes would take effect.”

The first sign of exposure is a shrinkage of pupils and darkening of vision, he said. “After that vomiting, [difficulty] breathing and convulsions.”

An antidote can delay or partially reverse the effects of the poison but would not necessarily save the life of the victim, he said.

it's similar to what you'd see in movies.

However he also wrote this
"Vil Mirzayanov, 83, said the chemical was too dangerous for anyone but a “high-level senior scientist” to handle"

"“You need a very high-qualified professional scientist,” he continued. “Because it is dangerous stuff. Extremely dangerous. You can kill yourself. First of all you have to have a very good shield, a very particular container. And after that to weaponize it – weaponize it is impossible without high technical equipment. It’s impossible to imagine.”

So now we are looking for either someone who has specialist knowledge, equipment, or the luck of the Devil not to be personally contaminated in the process of administering the Toxin.

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Express this morning
"
Theresa May FORCED to give EU CONCESSIONS to FINALLY secure a transition deal
Brexit Secretary David Davis told the Commons this week that he was “confident” a deal would be secured and is set to be in Brussels over the weekend to meet his EU counterpart Michel Barnier on Monday.

Sneaked in while the Russia was engaging the Press and the Punters, and a small surrender would pass unnoticed.

After all, as Zlatan has pointed out, the Government glossed over and ignored several other murders in the past they could have blamed Russia for, but they obviously happened at inconvenient times.
The Brexit voters have been mugged yet again.

Incidentally the Readers comments in the Daily Mail are far from being convinced that this is anything more than a case of using an unfortunate event from an unknown assailant being used for Propaganda by the Government or even a Hoax!

I should have thought (wrongly) that they would have all gone along with the Government line.
For once the Press has overestimated it's power of suggestion and so has TM.
It isn't the call to arms and making her out a heroin she has hoped for.

 

[Woosh]

So now we are looking for either someone who has specialist knowledge, equipment, or the luck of the Devil not to be personally contaminated in the process of administering the Toxin.

you don't have to read his sales pitch.
The police should look for a perfume spray bottle.

 

[oldgroaner]

you don't have to read his sales pitch.
The police should look for a perfume spray bottle.

Held by someone Frothing at the mouth......

 

[oldgroaner]

On QT Chris Dimbleby asked a question that wasn't answered
"
As host David Dimbleby finally interjects in exasperation:

The point is why do they want to give money to the Tory party, what do they get back from giving money to the Tory party?"
"
On Question Time, Conservative secretary of state for transport Chris Grayling could only argue that donations were legal. He told the audience that his party can only accept donations from UK citizens and UK businesses. And he accused those criticising the donations of tarring all Russians with the same brush. But other panellists, including Labour’s Kier Starmer, highlighted that whilst the donations might technically be legal, they are also patently in exchange for something.

The Conservative Party has accepted more than £3m in donations from Russian oligarchs since coming to power in 2010, £820,000 of that sum since Theresa May became prime minster in 2016. This includes £30,000 from the wife of a former Putin crony to have dinner with Britain’s defence secretary. The Williamson dinner is just one example showing how (despite Grayling’s protestations), key members of the Russian leadership can buy access to the Conservative government..

Source "The Canary"

If the Labour Party accepted Russian Money they would be pilloried by the press
Why aren't the Conservatives?

 

[Woosh]

If the Labour Party accepted Russian Money they would be pilloried by the press
Why aren't the Conservatives?

the Canary does that job - all is fair in love and war.
We have a free press, with warts and all.

 

[Woosh]

as 'frictionless border' is clearly an oxymoron, the EU will apparently let TM postpone the NI border issue to allow talks on the transition to be concluded.

 

[Zlatan]

All information being as trustworthy as the WMD's in Iraq?

We had a public inquiry lasting just over a year who,s conclusions were ( as stated in earlier post) that FSB planned and carried out the killing of Litvenco. They went further and said " probably under Putin's direct orders"
Now I accept Wiki and every other media outlet may put slants on things or even tell complete lies but a public inquiry OG ? ( working on evidence gleaned over 10 years and a year of debating it?)
Its you refusing to accept facts, or are you saying the very fabric of our society is corrupt and or biased? ( The independent public enquiry about Litvencos death is available for all)
Or are you saying the very organisation that got, and keeps , Putin in power actually carry out killings without his knowledge ? Or did public inquiry get it all wrong...because OG thinks differently.?
This death is now just one of 15 . Look who is examining the most recent case and study backgrounds of victim. Then compare those with chap laid comatose in a hospital bed now.
My question is why wasn't more done when public inquiry came to conclusion it did.??? Why have we had to have more. Its no longer a case of is Russia guilty over the latest case, enough had been done in 2006. Or do you want to just carry on ignoring it all ?

 

[oldtom]

the Canary does that job - all is fair in love and war.
We have a free press, with warts and all.

Sadly, 'free press' and by extension, other mainstream media, while sounding like a desirable element in civilised society, does not equate to uncorrupted or incorruptible.

The 'Fourth Estate' is viewed realistically in the 'Wikipedia' entry here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate

Tom