Brexit, for once some facts.

Danidl

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  • The attached is a report prepared by Irish embassy staff, .
  • It was not intended for general publication. But it is interesting that it dies not diverge much from the opinion I provided some days ago. It is of course more authoritive.Nobody in the eu wants to humiliate the UK, but ut is a case that they need to up their act.




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European dismay at UK 'chaos and confusion' over Brexit
Updated / Thursday, 23 Nov 2017 20:40


There are concerns across European capitals that a breakthrough may not happen in December

An internal report by the Department of Foreign Affairs has painted a negative and deeply unflattering picture of Britain's performance in the Brexit negotiations.

It is based on an extensive round of meetings between senior Irish diplomatic figures and government officials in European capitals.

The confidential report, seen by RTÉ News, quotes senior EU figures as being alarmed by "chaos in the Conservative government", with British ministers and civil servants unable to agree a coherent policy on Brexit.

The report says there are significant concerns across European capitals that it will be difficult to break the deadlock in the negotiations ahead of the December summit.

The UK wants the EU27 to move on to the second phase of the talks covering trade as soon as possible.

So far, the EU has said that cannot happen until Britain makes concessions on its financial liabilities, citizens’ rights, and the border.

The paper is based on a series of meetings between Irish ambassadors and senior embassy officials and government and foreign ministry officials in ten EU member states and in Japan.

The document is a compilation of political reports from Irish embassies across Europe between 6 and 10 November.

This was some three weeks after the EU summit in Brussels during which EU leaders told Theresa May that Britain needed to do more on the three key issues.

The opinions voiced by EU ministers and senior officials to Irish diplomats reflect widespread pessimism and even scorn about the British government's negotiating position.

Some EU figures talk of "chaos" in the British government.

The report reveals that at a meeting between David Davis, Britain's Brexit Secretary, and two French ministers, Mr Davis barely mentioned Brexit.

This was much to the surprise of his hosts, who had regarded the meeting as an opportunity for Mr Davis to unblock French resistance to negotiations graduating to the next phase.

During a meeting in Luxembourg, the British judge in the European Court of Justice bemoaned "the quality of politicians in Westminster".

Ian Forrester wondered if the British public might view Brexit as "a great mistake" when they realised what leaving the EU entailed.

A minister in the Czech government told his Irish interlocutors that Britain's Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was "unimpressive", but that at least he had "avoided any gaffes" during a visit in September.

Czech Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs Jakub Dürr told officials "he felt sorry for British Ambassadors around the EU trying to communicate a coherent message when there is political confusion at home".



Read more
The Brexit Veto: How and why Ireland raised the stakes
UK must deliver progress on Brexit issues







Overall, the various ministries across the EU expressed doubt that Britain would be permitted to move to the second phase of talks unless it brought forward solutions to the issue of the UK's financial liabilities on leaving the EU.

Most officials and ministers noted that the EU remained united at 27, and that Michel Barnier, the EU's chief negotiator, had appeared far from optimistic that a breakthrough would happen at the December summit.

Some senior figures warned about Britain crashing out of the EU without agreement.

At a meeting in Rome, the Italian Minister for Economic Development Carlo Calenda said a no-deal scenario could cost Italian businesses €4.5 billion.


Several member states expressed concern about the border and sought information from Irish officials about the kinds of solutions that might be required.

According to the report, the Greek Ambassador for EU Affairs at the Foreign Ministry in Athens Ioannis Metaxas said he was "pre-occupied with Brexit, which would cause 'big problems' for Ireland, Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark".

He was "keen to know what the solutions would be in terms of managing both migratory and customs flows between the north and south".






At a meeting in Japan in September between the vice minister of economy, trade and industry and Tanáiste Frances Fitzgerald, the report states that the Tanáiste "took every opportunity to make the case for Ireland as the ideal post-Brexit solution for Japanese companies considering investment or expansion in the EU".

On 7 November, Irish embassy officials in Paris met Gaël Veyssiere, the head of cabinet of the French minister for European Affairs, who was keen to learn how Irish issues would be dealt with in the coming weeks during the negotiations.

The paper reported that Mr Veyssiere had "picked up" remarks by the former head of the World Trade Organisation Pascal Lamythat Northern Ireland could "become like Hong Kong, a special autonomous zone within the EU".

Mr Veyssiere is also reported as saying that unless the UK brought forward some solutions to the financial settlement, "there could not be a positive outcome in December".

The paper adds: "He was very negative about the possibility of this happening and about the level of engagement by the UK."

The report then details Mr Davis's dinner with the French Minister for Foreign Affairs Jean-Yves Le Drian and Nathalie Loiseau, the French Minister for European Affairs, on 23 October.

"Despite having billed this in the media in advance," the paper states, "as a meeting to 'unblock' French resistance, Davis hardly mentioned Brexit at all during the meeting, much to French surprise, focusing instead on foreign policy issues."

In a meeting with the Cypriot Minister for Foreign Affairs Ioannis Kasoulides, the Irish ambassador was told that "the UK must do more on the financial settlement - it's a matter of trust".

The Irish embassy in Slovakia reported that government ministers there were insistent that the financial settlement issue was "very important", and that EU citizens in the UK must have their rights protected, not just for four years "but for 40 years".

A similar picture emerged in Latvia, where senior government officials said UK ministers had made "a poor impression on their rounds of capitals and Latvia is pessimistic with regards to reaching an agreement in December".

The officials said "the biggest problem is the chaotic political situation in the UK government".

Equally damning were the reported comments of the UK's member of the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg, Judge Ian Forrester.





The report quotes the judge as saying there were "issues around the quality of politicians in Westminster at present".

He described British society as "very divided" and it was "difficult to see any solutions to this in the current political context".

The judge said there had been "a fair amount of contact" between him and the British government on the issue.

However, he said "only one person out of all those who had been in contact had any real grasp of the complexities involved [in leaving the EU]."

Judge Forrester was then quoted as saying "this process is going to go on for some time and ... his hope was that it would gradually dawn on people what leaving actually entailed, that there might be a slow realisation

Swedish Minister for Trade Ann Linde told Irish officials that "no country, either inside or outside the EU should be worse off because of Brexit".

Sweden was in "full agreement" with Mr Barnier and the EU should have "a coordinated and coherent voice".

Although Ms Linde said she was "optimistic" about a good outcome in December, the UK would "have to provide clarity on the financial settlement".


View this article on rte.ieMore Brexit
 
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anotherkiwi

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Jan 26, 2015
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Wasn't it your Queen who sang: "I want it all and I want it now"? Not going to happen. Sorry.
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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It's bad enough here George, I can't imagine how you must feel!

Now, with so many more of the facts available and a practical demonstration of what exiting Europe will do to our little country, wouldn't it be sensible to have a second referendum? I can imagine such a move would not be welcomed by the die hard Brexiteers amongst us, let's face it, it's pretty certain we would not be leaving, but surely there is a certain kind of sense to it?

This may have been discussed already on this Titanic thread, if so it must be worth considering again?
David...I would also support a second referendum but don't be so sure Remain would win....there are many in the UK who voted Leave,the Brexit vote was their moment of power that had to be followed through,no matter how bad Brexit looks, if you reverse that decision you have neutralised their decision. I have friends,who both voted Brexit,I argued successfully that every reason they voted was with hindsight void....they quite angrily said that it was their vote and whilst my points were very valid they would still vote Brexit again,with no logic arguments as to why.
The EU have been so one sided in the negotiations,who say they don't want to hurt the UK,then Barnier spends his time blackmailing the UK into punitive settlements,the decision not to allow UK cities into the city of culture vote was particularly spiteful. This may have hardened Brexit and Remain voters into an anti EU stance.
The EU are saying that the Irish border problem is a UK problem,but it is Ireland who have the most to lose without a customs border but are making no attempt to help how a frictionless border my be achieved....I say leave it as an open border and let the north sell cheaply across the border (that is already happening),let the EU find a solution.
May can reverse Brexit without a second referendum,she should be brave and scrap Brexit,at least she would leave with infamy,she is after all the mistress of the U-turn.
KudosDave
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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From the Independent
"
UK languishing in midst of two decades of lost wage growth and falling living standards, warn economic experts
Earnings for average Britons are set to plummet following downgraded growth forecasts in the Budget
The respected Institute for Fiscal Studies said that by 2021 average earnings are set to be £1,400 lower than the Government thought they were going to be.
The Resolution Foundation said British people are now set to suffer their longest sustained period of falling living standards since records began in the 1950s.

The Elephant in the room is a simple question: are the younger generation willing to suffer the consequences of Brexit long before they rise in protest?
Are they willing to accept Developing country wage slave standards of living to support the millionaire life styles of the rich?
Brexit wasn't the major cause of this situation, as Tory mismanagment of the economy has been dragging us down for years.
BUT
Brexit has allowed the worst and most rabid Tory element to come out of the closet, and they have found a culprit to blame for their wrongdoing.

It's all the fault of not the EU, but our Voters, who have FORCED BREXIT on them.
"It's the Will of the people" so anything that's wrong will have been their fault for forcing the Government to give Brexit to them at any price.
A wonderful Confidence trick, second only to Brexit itself.
And what is it that the Economists blame for our woes? the poor productivity of the British workers.
They site this sort of graph

Now imagine you are one of the Working class who voted for Brexit because they were fed up with Austerity, how are they going to react to be told not only will things get far worse (when they were made such glowing promises) but worse, it is all their fault because they are lazy B******s?

The Graph seems at first glance to indicate that productivity increased steadily year on year till the Bankers blew up the Betting shop.

And it shows quite clearly that the expectation of the Economic Gurus is that more and more is expected from the output of the workforce year on year. from 40 in the 1970's to 100 now?
How much more can be screwed out of the workforce, when their standards of lving are on the decline and the Government just voted to reduce their rights and conditions?

And all are of us are supposed to continue with this Farce as if peace and goodwill from the electorate is assured.
 
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oldtom

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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Brexit has allowed the worst and most rabid Tory element to come out of the closet, and they have found a culprit to blame for their wrongdoing.

It's all the fault of not the EU, but our Voters, who have FORCED BREXIT on them.
"It's the Will of the people" so anything that's wrong will have been their fault for forcing the Government to give Brexit to them at any price.
The tories are now so encouraged by the continuing support for 'Brexit' from most of the millions of fools who believed the lies and can't bring themselves to believe they made a huge error, that they are now determined to carry on regardless.

That means they are intent on disproving Lincoln's adage about fooling all of the people all of the time. They believe they can do whatever they want and get away with it.

Tom
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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I think a round of applause is due as the DUP have come up with something new and very Novel for Right wing Politicians.

ACCIDENTAL TRUTH

Who'da thunk it?
My goodness! whatever next?
For shame, that a Tory should be the first to do this?
He must have had one of them thar biblical moments of clarity .. you know, an Epi........ oh yes, I have the words now "Epic Funny" or something like that
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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Now imagine you are one of the Working class who voted for Brexit because they were fed up with Austerity, how are they going to react to be told not only will things get far worse (when they were made such glowing promises) but worse, it is all their fault because they are lazy B******s?

The Graph seems at first glance to indicate that productivity increased steadily year on year till the Bankers blew up the Betting shop.

And it shows quite clearly that the expectation of the Economic Gurus is that more and more is expected from the output of the workforce year on year. from 40 in the 1970's to 100 now?
How much more can be screwed out of the workforce, when their standards of lving are on the decline and the Government just voted to reduce their rights and conditions?

And all are of us are supposed to continue with this Farce as if peace and goodwill from the electorate is assured.
productivity is a trade off, if you have more workers producing the same output, then productivity decreases.
After the bankers blew up the betting shop in 2007/2008 as you put it, there is no money for investment into production, the priority is then employment, productivity improvement is the last priority.
The problem is with the two decades preceeding 2007/2008 crisis, lots of productivity gain was by the betting shop, so when it went belly up, it took a fair chunk of productivity with it.

As KudosDave pointed out accurately:

....there are many in the UK who voted Leave,the Brexit vote was their moment of power that had to be followed through,no matter how bad Brexit looks, if you reverse that decision you have neutralised their decision. I have friends,who both voted Brexit,I argued successfully that every reason they voted was with hindsight void....they quite angrily said that it was their vote and whilst my points were very valid they would still vote Brexit again,with no logic arguments as to why.
People voted for it because any change is better than the present.
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
The political wing of the British establishment, currently embarked on their bloody project to dismantle and sell off every piece of public-owned institutions while condemning ordinary people to austerity.........

23754883_922316297927291_1226087954025665937_n.jpg

............continue to lie to the British people. Remember these promises from not long ago - this was written just before the budget:
23843424_1628373870517076_7403464523834047096_n.jpg

It doesn't get any better, does it?

Tom
 
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Steb

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Jul 15, 2017
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Well, why don't you give it a try?
The step most of them skipped is thinking (about the present and what successive Conservative and neoconservative governments inflicted), before voting. Brexit is really just a further desperate gamble from the betting shop (owned by those in tax havens) on maintaining the parasitic lifestyle that went before
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Well, why don't you give it a try?
In my case, it's because I like being a citizen of Europe and I do not wish to condemn my children and grandchildren to economic and political isolation, while they watch 27 other sovereign nation states become wealthier and more influential in the world than the UK can ever be again.

We are going the way of all great empires with the exception that we are actively contributing to our own downfall.

Tom
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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yes, do explain.
As I said its difficult to know where to start... Yours was a global sentence implying that things were absolutely bad and could not get worse. As a proposition that is so obviously wrong.. . In a world were people are dying from lack of clean water, open sewage, no medicines, genocide, imprisonment for having unacceptable opinions , an inability to pay for sky tv, or not having enough money to get a few pints of bitter on a friday, while unpleasant could be worse....
Had you said that people voted as they did in a belief that things would be better in a future.. i would not have called you out.
 

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