Brexit, for once some facts.

[Kudoscycles]

The problem of Brexit is that it has so many facets that at no time can an agreement be reached that is stable...The Irish are being unreasonable in not accepting any border,even an invisible one,they are about to go through a period of political instability maybe new elections.....The Germans cannot form a government ,Merkel is trying to hang on....The Spaniards have not solved their Catalan problem....Northern Ireland cannot form a devolved government.....and May and Co cant agree for 5 minutes,I think parliament will throw out this £40billion offer.
With 27 countries involved it was going to need flexibility by all and a political will by all,that is clearly not happening.
On the TV this morning they discussed the Sweden/Norway trade border...it is not frictionless,Sweden describes Norway as still their most difficult trading partner,it took years to achieve and yet both parties set it up in an environment of mutual cooperation....that hardly exists between the EU and UK.
Personally I think we should be discussing with the EU a deal to keep us in,maybe we would be in a better negotiating position than was Cameron when he went round with his begging bowl.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

To imply anything would be better is ridiculous.

People voted in relation to their personal circumstance. For instance, the situation of the man in Hartlepool that KudosDave mentions many times is not comparable to KudosDave's own, that explains why they voted differently.

 

[flecc]

People voted in relation to their personal circumstance. For instance, the situation of the man in Hartlepool that KudosDave mentions many times is not comparable to KudosDave's own, that explains why they voted differently.

But again, 18 millions cannot have had personal circumstances that made anything else better. Those in the stable circumstances I described who thought that anything would be better were quite simply unthinking idiots.
.

 

[Woosh]

Those in the stable circumstances I described who thought that anything would be better were quite simply unthinking idiots.

you are not taking their personal viewpoint into account.

 

[Georgew]

productivity is a trade off, if you have more workers producing the same output, then productivity decreases.
After the bankers blew up the betting shop in 2007/2008 as you put it, there is no money for investment into production, the priority is then employment, productivity improvement is the last priority.
The problem is with the two decades preceeding 2007/2008 crisis, lots of productivity gain was by the betting shop, so when it went belly up, it took a fair chunk of productivity with it.

As KudosDave pointed out accurately:



People voted for it because any change is better than the present.

No....people voted for it not from any logical reason or after any mature consideration of the facts. Their decision was was motivated by emotion...which is the case with most human beings....but in this case the emotion was engendered by misleading and inflammatory propaganda in the press instigated by certain Tories for their own purposes.

 

[Danidl]

The problem of Brexit is that it has so many facets that at no time can an agreement be reached that is stable...The Irish are being unreasonable in not accepting any border,even an invisible one,they are about to go through a period of political instability maybe new elections.....The Germans cannot form a government ,Merkel is trying to hang on....The Spaniards have not solved their Catalan problem....Northern Ireland cannot form a devolved government.....and May and Co cant agree for 5 minutes,I think parliament will throw out this £40billion offer.
With 27 countries involved it was going to need flexibility by all and a political will by all,that is clearly not happening.
On the TV this morning they discussed the Sweden/Norway trade border...it is not frictionless,Sweden describes Norway as still their most difficult trading partner,it took years to achieve and yet both parties set it up in an environment of mutual cooperation....that hardly exists between the EU and UK.
Personally I think we should be discussing with the EU a deal to keep us in,maybe we would be in a better negotiating position than was Cameron when he went round with his begging bowl.
KudosDave

Dave... Some of these are strawman arguements, set up for the purpose of jnocking them down.
1. The irish are not being unreasonable in respect to a border. We dont want one. That is a reasonable stance. We have provided plenty of reasons why a border on the landmass of ireland is not a good idea. We will not facilitate the setting up of one, when we have a perfectly good operation in place with both UK and Ireland being in the same union, with the rest of Europe. We are not stupid, and recognise that if England leaves, there needs to be some border arrangement, but it is for the leavers to set that up.
2. The DUP \ SF failure to set up their regional parliament has its roots in a political failure by Ms Foster, and direct rule should have been instigated months ago
3 We may very well have an election in the RoI , . SF are spoiling for one, but even if there were, and I suspect, there won't, it will have no major effect. Both the major parties FF and FG ( and even including SF making 3 ) are at one in respect of Brexit and the boarder.
4. There is an expectation that Ms Merkel will form a cabinet, weakened maybe but don't assume that will be of any assistance to the UK Brexit side
5. The Catalan crisis may well be on its way to a satisfactory if temporary solution. There will be elections on 21st December, the central government is discussing methods by which the Cathalans would have more devolved taxation rights, more akin to the Basques. The secessionists are in disarray. I use the word temporary, because nationalism fever has a way of recurring.
6. The UK government is in a shambolic state over Brexit so in the national interest it should be shelved. The ordinary business of governance has been put on the back burner..
The only point we can agree on is that the UK should be negotiating on how it can continue to be a fully functioning member of the EU. I don't like the begging bowl analogy.

 

[mike killay]

As I said its difficult to know where to start... Yours was a global sentence implying that things were absolutely bad and could not get worse. As a proposition that is so obviously wrong.. . In a world were people are dying from lack of clean water, open sewage, no medicines, genocide, imprisonment for having unacceptable opinions , an inability to pay for sky tv, or not having enough money to get a few pints of bitter on a friday, while unpleasant could be worse....
Had you said that people voted as they did in a belief that things would be better in a future.. i would not have called you out.

"People voted for it because any change is better than the present."
Is what Woosh posted and you have expanded the meaning.
Typical lefty way of closing down a debate by implying incompetence on the part of the other.

 

[flecc]

you are not taking their personal viewpoint into account.

I have twice, in observing how distorted their personal viewpoint is.

I've remarked before on the myth that it was the old people who voted for Brexit, it clearly wasn't as many of the oldsters in this thread show. The bulk of the Brexit vote very obviously was from the middle years generations, born from around 1960 on.

They include the spoilt generations who've never known really severe life problems, who think not being able to afford a new i-phone is hardship, who think not being able to afford Nike trainers is poverty. They've always been able to fall back on the welfare state, and even now when chinks show in that support, the voluntary sector provides generously, food banks and a huge range of charities for example.

Their personal viewpoint is grossly distorted, omitting as it does the huge range of worse life possibilities. They see on the news how terrible those alternatives can be, yet are too stupid to realise that they too could all too easily experience those circumstances.

I have no patience with them.
.

 

[Danidl]

"People voted for it because any change is better than the present."
Is what Woosh posted and you have expanded the meaning.
Typical lefty way of closing down a debate by implying incompetence on the part of the other.

No. No. I have never ever accused Woosh of incompetence. My family and friends would be amused to have me described as "lefty" , unless they were referring to my ambidextrous nature.
I once bought my son a t shirt in a shop selling items for those who are sinster or left handed. In Ireland the term is Citeog . It says " im left handed .. whats your superpower" . I might have bought one for myself, but im too modest.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Brexit hasnt really hurt the vast majority of Brexit voters and Hammond's budget didnt focus on the negatives of Brexit to these people,it was a softish giveaway budget,he probably wanted a hard hitting austerity budget,blaming Brexit uncertainty,but with the Tories slim majority that would have been unthinkable,he kicked the ugly can down the road,instead more borrowing.
Brexit has only affected a small number of people who are directly involved in its forward implications,no big job losses,no cuts to tax credits or benefits...but no pay rises or bonuses. It needs a significant event to make Brexit voters realise that Brexit is a real event,not a phony one. Maybe there wont be a significant event just a number of small cost increases,income cuts,inflation and one day man from Huddersfield will wake up and realise that he hasn't any money and Brexit did nothing for him,he may also realise that it did a lot for the Rees-Moggs of this world,that man has 'something of the night about him'.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Dave... Some of these are strawman arguements, set up for the purpose of jnocking them down.
1. The irish are not being unreasonable in respect to a border. We dont want one. That is a reasonable stance. We have provided plenty of reasons why a border on the landmass of ireland is not a good idea. We will not facilitate the setting up of one, when we have a perfectly good operation in place with both UK and Ireland being in the same union, with the rest of Europe. We are not stupid, and recognise that if England leaves, there needs to be some border arrangement, but it is for the leavers to set that up.
2. The DUP \ SF failure to set up their regional parliament has its roots in a political failure by Ms Foster, and direct rule should have been instigated months ago
3 We may very well have an election in the RoI , . SF are spoiling for one, but even if there were, and I suspect, there won't, it will have no major effect. Both the major parties FF and FG ( and even including SF making 3 ) are at one in respect of Brexit and the boarder.
4. There is an expectation that Ms Merkel will form a cabinet, weakened maybe but don't assume that will be of any assistance to the UK Brexit side
5. The Catalan crisis may well be on its way to a satisfactory if temporary solution. There will be elections on 21st December, the central government is discussing methods by which the Cathalans would have more devolved taxation rights, more akin to the Basques. The secessionists are in disarray. I use the word temporary, because nationalism fever has a way of recurring.
6. The UK government is in a shambolic state over Brexit so in the national interest it should be shelved. The ordinary business of governance has been put on the back burner..
The only point we can agree on is that the UK should be negotiating on how it can continue to be a fully functioning member of the EU. I don't like the begging bowl analogy.

Danidl....the Irish lady on the TV listed out all the types of border that will not be acceptable,she rejected even electronic recognition. The Irish dont want a border,nor do NI,nor do the English but the EU expect a border to control trade and tariffs....perhaps the Irish should ask the EU what sort of border will be acceptable to them?
KudosDave

 

[Danidl]

Danidl....the Irish lady on the TV listed out all the types of border that will not be acceptable,she rejected even electronic recognition. The Irish dont want a border,nor do NI,nor do the English but the EU expect a border to control trade and tariffs....perhaps the Irish should ask the EU what sort of border will be acceptable to them?
KudosDave

To What irish lady are you referring ? name please. . To us no border is the acceptable position, all other schemes are less and less acceptable. But since you ask, the majority of people on the island of Ireland would prefer border posts at cairnryan, liverpool, holyhead, and swansea.

 

[tommie]

perhaps the Irish should ask the EU what sort of border will be acceptable to them?
KudosDave

herein lies the key..... Leo and Forster met (ROI/NI) a while back and both agreed there should be a `sensible` border, but the EU dug their heels in and said that wouldn't be acceptable.

The ball is firmly within the EU`s court.

 

[tommie]

the majority of people on the island of Ireland would prefer border posts at cairnryan, liverpool, holyhead, and swansea.

Ermmm.... NO!

you`re obviously speaking for ROI, the border will stay unless of course your floundering government come to the sensible position of returning to the UK,
Border issue solved overnight!

 

[Danidl]

herein lies the key..... Leo and Forster met (ROI/NI) a while back and both agreed there should be a `sensible` border, but the EU dug their heels in and said that wouldn't be acceptable.

The ball is firmly within the EU`s court.

Evidence please...

 

[flecc]

Ermmm.... NO!

you`re obviously speaking for ROI, the border will stay unless of course your floundering government come to the sensible position of returning to the UK,
Border issue solved overnight!

Since NI voted to remain in the EU, surely the sensible option is for NI to leave the UK and rejoin the ROI.
.

 

[Danidl]

Ermmm.... NO!

you`re obviously speaking for ROI, the border will stay unless of course your floundering government come to the sensible position of returning to the UK,
Border issue solved overnight!

I did say majority of people on the island. It might also include a significant minority from your neck of the woods. ... Ooh didn't 56% of those also want to remain in the EU?.

Tommie I don't want to be pushing this, but intransigence on this issue by the DUP could well drive a new border poll.. its what SF want and are campaigning for and the DUP position is inadvertently feeding it.

 

[Kudoscycles]

To What irish lady are you referring ? name please. . To us no border is the acceptable position, all other schemes are less and less acceptable. But since you ask, the majority of people on the island of Ireland would prefer border posts at cairnryan, liverpool, holyhead, and swansea.

How would that work? Dont forget our 'wonderful' Mr Liam Fox is intending a free trade deal with China....how would the EU react to goods coming in tariff free into Belfast from China and then being sold into Ireland across the 'no border'....we are discussing this on a site for pedelecs,it could be that post Brexit e-bikes coming into Dublin would be subject to maybe 54% duty,those into Belfast tariff free...that would have Juncker spilling his finest!!!!
Even if we crash out,the WTO tariff I think is 14%,a lot less than 54%.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Since NI voted to remain in the EU, surely the sensible option is for NI to leave the UK and rejoin the ROI.
.

Tony....would you want to be the one who puts that to the DUP,hehe???
Anyway,dont forget the DUP is holding up the Tory government,damn that slim majority!!!!
KudosDave

 

[tommie]

Evidence please...

why, certainly --> https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/foster-meets-varadkar-says-she-wants-sensible-brexit-1.3122129

At the moment the ROI are being used/bullied again by Barnier etc just like in that Lisbon referendum,

about time you told the EU it`s not our problem mate, sort it out yourselves!!