Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

In the Telegraph they are still assuring us of a 100 seat Tory Majority despite this

I do so hope they are right, when Brexit goes down in ruin it will take them with it.
This is one time to lose a battle and win a war!

there seems to be a theory that the hard brexiters do not want TM to win with a landslide so they can get their hard brexit.

 

[oldgroaner]

there seems to be a theory that the hard brexiters do not want TM to win with a landslide so they can get their hard brexit.

You've lost me there, you really have!
Are you implying May is in any danger of achieving anything else and that it makes a tinker's cuss of difference to the EU how big her majority is?
That theory look more of the nature of coming up with a very shaky excuse for abysmal failure on her part as a Public Figure.

 

[Woosh]

TM was set to win with a landslide. If her majority is in the 100, she can rule the conservative party on her own and go for a softer brexit.
With a marority under 50, she will be held hostage by the hard brexiter tory MPs.
So, for the good of the country, either she wins big or not at all. Anything in between, we are going to get a hard brexit.

 

[oldgroaner]

TM was set to win with a landslide. If her majority is in the 100, she can rule the conservative party on her own and go for a softer brexit.
With a marority under 50, she will be held hostage by the hard brexiter tory MPs.
So, for the good of the country, either she wins big or not at all. Anything in between, we are going to get a hard brexit.

I really don't think we are going to get anything other than exactly what the EU wants to give us, the notion we have any choice is pie in the sky
And since there is no chance whatsoever of getting any deal as good as being a member, it really doesn't matter anyway, we are going downhill either way.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Danidl]

I really don't think we are going to get anything other than exactly what the EU wants to give us, the notion we have any choice is pie in the sky
And since there is no chance whatsoever of getting any deal as good as being a member, it really doesn't matter anyway, we are going downhill either way.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

In my opinion what the EU wants to give you is full access to the internal market, free movement of people's and adjudication of disputes using the ECJ... But it will be the intrangence of the UK negotiators, which will limit what we can offer.

 

[anotherkiwi]

The EU wants to give you nothing. You decided to leave the EU so you have to ask (politely) for things you may need from the EU which will then decide to let you have them or not.

 

[oldgroaner]

The EU wants to give you nothing. You decided to leave the EU so you have to ask (politely) for things you may need from the EU which will then decide to let you have them or not.

And promise something in return of course!

 

[oldgroaner]

In my opinion what the EU wants to give you is full access to the internal market, free movement of people's and adjudication of disputes using the ECJ... But it will be the intrangence of the UK negotiators, which will limit what we can offer.

I suspect they want us to drop Brexit or simply buzz off, and I don't blame them.

 

[flecc]

In my opinion what the EU wants to give you is full access to the internal market, free movement of people's and adjudication of disputes using the ECJ... But it will be the intrangence of the UK negotiators, which will limit what we can offer.

The EU wants to give you nothing. You decided to leave the EU so you have to ask (politely) for things you may need from the EU which will then decide to let you have them or not.

These two are not incompatible. Danidl quotes EU fundamental aims which they'd like all to have, but of course will prefer to appear to offer nothing initially. Successful negotiation depends on leaving room for concession on things that would be on offer anyway.
.

 

[oldtom]

I shall understand if everyone laughs at me for this but I am not convinced that the stupid woman will be PM by the end of the week.

I realise that it seems unlikely but I really do believe May's position will be severely weakened when the votes are counted. With luck, her majority will disappear and we may have to witness again the kind of horse-trading that brought about the useless coalition with the laughable demo-rats in 2010.

A bit more luck would see Corbyn in Downing Street next week and then we will see the beginning of a progressive, reforming government.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

I shall understand if everyone laughs at me for this but I am not convinced that the stupid woman will be PM by the end of the week.

I realise that it seems unlikely but I really do believe May's position will be severely weakened when the votes are counted. With luck, her majority will disappear and we may have to witness again the kind of horse-trading that brought about the useless coalition with the laughable demo-rats in 2010.

A bit more luck would see Corbyn in Downing Street next week and then we will see the beginning of a progressive, reforming government.

Tom

Alas I fear that we will have to go through Brexit and the full horror of the mistake revealed before the time is appropriate for a Socialist Government, so from my perspective I wouldn't wish for Corbyn to be shouldered with the responsibility for trying to make the hideously flawed decision to leave the EU turn into something other than a disaster.

Why should he carry the Blame for the Debacle caused by the real villains of the piece? Farage, Cameron, Johnson, May, Gove, Davis and Fox and all the other Tory imbeciles participating in this tragi comedy?
And the British public that voted for leave? they can no longer be described as being misled can they? if they don't know the reality of the situation by now the only conclusion possible is they are their own worst enemies.

To that sorry, incompetent Tory bunch I say "Good luck tomorrow, get a good majority, and when you have it, give the people who voted for you the Government they deserve!"

After all as it says in the cheap gift shop
"Good to look at
Nice to hold
But if you break it
Consider it sold!"
The price will be ruin for the party in power when the proverbial hits the fan.

That will be the time for a Labour Government to rebuild the country from the ruins as it did in 1945
And of course as a priority rejoin the EU as a fully participating state not a nuisance.

 

[flecc]

I shall understand if everyone laughs at me for this but I am not convinced that the stupid woman will be PM by the end of the week.

I'm not laughing Tom, even the tory party realised that using her to front the campaign was a mistake and belatedly stopped doing it. She really did have the result of turning people off and that's been widely recognised among journalists.

I doubt it will be enough to overturn the outcome, but if not, hopefully it will be a hung parliament which will inhibit her actions.

Ideally with Liberals and the SNP holding the balance they'll be able to enforce holding a second referendum on the outcome of negotiations as a condition of co-operation.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

I'm not laughing Tom, even the tory party realised that using her to front the campaign was a mistake and belatedly stopped doing it. She really did have the result of turning people off and that's been widely recognised among journalists.

I doubt it will be enough to overturn the outcome, but if not, hopefully it will be a hung parliament which will inhibit her actions.

Ideally with Liberals and the SNP holding the balance they'll be able to enforce holding a second referendum on the outcome of negotiations as a condition of co-operation.
.

At this juncture bear with me as I'm having one of my "Turns" and offer this earlier post of mine, not as a criticism of your post flecc, as I truly would like to see the outcome of the election as you describe it, but simply as a little hopefully comic relief
"
Not exactly a ringing endorsement of faith is it?
Ah the joys of Brexit. here's a helpful suggestion
Perhaps we can bottle your optimism and sell it to broken down street walkers?
Then they might be conned into negotiating Brexit terms on our behalf
(And not run off screaming when they realise they will be held responsible)

#2408 oldgroaner, Jul 11, 2016
Now of course I will have to find a way of explaining the gag to you know who

 

[oldtom]

I'm back in England in order to cast my vote but I have one final thing to say before polling opens:



Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

The papers are remarkably restrained this morning, may is making a fool of herself asking labour voters to do the "patriotic thing"and vote for her for the "Good of the Country"
And her willingness to ditch Human rights is meeting with some surprising opposition among readers of both the Mail and Express.
The Daily Mirror has made it's attitude crystal clear
"
Lies, damned lies and Theresa May - don't condemn Britain to 5 more years of Tory broken promises
Her joyless manifesto offered no hope to millions of ordinary people but plenty in the way of tax breaks to tycoons who bankroll the Tories"

 

[oldtom]

Today is the day when we all have the opportunity to express our political preference at the polls in our gerrymandered constituency arrangement passed off as the basis of democracy.

Whatever the outcome, I earnestly hope that everyone who sets out to do their civic duty today returns home safely.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Alas that we should come to this.
my sympathy and loyalty is to Socialism and always will be, and yet in this parallel universe we have somehow fallen into
"Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the Party" is no longer a guarantee of not placing the socialist movement's future into harms way.

Woe and thrice woe, that a Labour Victory if it happens will make them carry the stigma when Brexit goes bottom up.

Talk about the "seeing your Mother in Law going over a cliff in your new car!"
When it comes to the crunch I shall in fact discard the notion I had of voting Lib Dem as a wasted vote and vote for the Labour Party after all.

How ironic after all these years when at last I find someone who's policies I want to vote for I feel conflicted at placing them in the path of an impending disaster.
One more ticket for the Maiden Voyage of the Titanic, please!
"I'm dreaming of a Hung Parliament" is my song of the day.

Our votes will be in by 9:30 AM

 

[flecc]

Unfortunately the weather isn't very favourable for Labour today, they always do best on fine polling days. The Tory vote is usually more resilient and reliable in turning out.
.

 

[oldtom]

When it comes to the crunch I shall in fact discard the notion I had of voting Lib Dem as a wasted vote and vote for the Labour Party after all.

Like you OG, I toyed with the idea of perhaps voting tactically in my absolutely staunch tory constituency....for about two minutes!

During those two minutes, I managed to work out that, while it would be totally pointless in my neck of the woods anyway, I really could not not cast a vote for a laughable demo-rat.....ever! Their disgusting act of betrayal in 2010 of all their much-vaunted liberal principles, about which they proudly boasted throughout their years in the political wilderness, simply demonstrated for me what a bunch of power-hungry careerists they are.

As for the rest, they are simply hobby political wannabees, not worth wasting a vote on. It all boils down to philosophy for me and this corrupt, capitalist system which Britain has endured since 1979 has been around too long. Only a sea-change to a socialist democracy will see the people of this country served by a government that puts people before profit.

Whether it is a wasted vote or not in my constituency, I can rest easy with my conscience knowing that I have remained true to my beliefs by voting for the Labour Party led by the most honest politician this country has seen in charge of a party since Clement Attlee.

Tom

 

[homemoz]

Alas that we should come to this.
my sympathy and loyalty is to Socialism and always will be, and yet in this parallel universe we have somehow fallen into
"Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the Party" is no longer a guarantee of not placing the socialist movement's future into harms way.

Woe and thrice woe, that a Labour Victory if it happens will make them carry the stigma when Brexit goes bottom up.

Talk about the "seeing your Mother in Law going over a cliff in your new car!"
When it comes to the crunch I shall in fact discard the notion I had of voting Lib Dem as a wasted vote and vote for the Labour Party after all.

How ironic after all these years when at last I find someone who's policies I want to vote for I feel conflicted at placing them in the path of an impending disaster.
One more ticket for the Maiden Voyage of the Titanic, please!
"I'm dreaming of a Hung Parliament" is my song of the day.

Our votes will be in by 9:30 AM

I also came to the same conclusion as yourself & have voted Labour (even though I had joined the LibDems last year). I have let our local LibDem candidate know that I would not be voting for him with the reasons why. I have to say that he was very gracious about by change of allegiance. What I find genuinely hard to understand in the support for the Torys amongst genuine intellligent and caring people. After all, they have
1. Lied about funding to the NHS & have created the most God-Awful crisis in both Social Care & the NHS 2. Are committed to spending billions on a weapon system that can never be used without the destruction of human kind 3. Continue to offer total support to Donald Trump & apparently can see no wrong in him 4. Are intent on dismantling environmental & human rights legislation 5. Have a leader who avoids interviews like the plague apart from when it is entirely scripted 6. Have demonised the vulernable in society 7. Have created an economy that genuinely favours the few over the many....etc etc.
And yet people still want to vote for them. Unlike yourself OG, I think that whatever they do or say doesn't really matter & even if the Brexit negotiations result in a hard Brexit they will still be supported. I just hope that I'm proved wrong but am not optimistic about the outcome from today.