Brexit, for once some facts.

Woosh

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This recent poll suggests a converging movement between leave and remain, but if a referendum were to be called today, the result would be the same:

The survey also reveals that “strong support” for Brexit among Leave voters steadily declined, from 74 per cent in December to 68 per cent in January, and then to 63 per cent between 30 March and 3 April.

Nielsen also found 3 per cent of Leave voters now oppose Brexit but 10 per cent of those who originally supported Remain have now shifted their support to Leave.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-leave-voters-consumer-confidence-remainers-buoyant-article-50-trigger-eu-talks-a7680481.html
 

oldgroaner

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This recent poll suggests a converging movement between leave and remain, but if a referendum were to be called today, the result would be the same:



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-leave-voters-consumer-confidence-remainers-buoyant-article-50-trigger-eu-talks-a7680481.html
True or false? The government needs reassuring poll results remembe r, and for the life of me I can't imagine why anyone should now be pro brexit, as nothing has made it look more attractive than it did and the government are making bigger and bigger cut backs, I really don't buy that as being anything but propaganda

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Woosh

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You can't trust polls but when the numbers are big then there must be an element of truth. People have now more facts about brexit than before, a referendum now would be more accurate. However, whichever side another referendum will fall, the margin between leave and remain is still not clear cut.
 

oldgroaner

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You can't trust polls but when the numbers are big then there must be an element of truth. People have now more facts about brexit than before, a referendum now would be more accurate. However, whichever side another referendum will fall, the margin between leave and remain is still not clear cut.
If we assume people are better informed then how do you explain then being happy with a government that intends to import people into good jobs rather then pay to subsidise the education of our own?
That was one of the advantages we were supposed to get from brexit

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What is more likely is people who didn't want brexit have simplify rolled over and given up
 
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Woosh

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I think people see beyond this government that gave them brexit.
The future after brexit is still unclear but the reasons to vote for it are clear and won't change for a long time, until the EU changes itself.
 

oldgroaner

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I think people see beyond this government that gave them brexit.
The future after brexit is still unclear but the reasons to vote for it are clear and won't change for a long time, until the EU changes itself.
Sorry but that is just nonsense, you are seeing something that simply isn't there and assuming the majority of people made an informed choice at the Referendum, which frankly was an impossibility.

Do not read erudition where there in fact there was simply a reactionary vote over a generation's worth of anti EU propaganda in the press, and a pack of lies from both camps, made worse by the fact that promises of great changes for the better were made, now confirmed as nonsense.

You are attempting to alter what actually occurred to fit your theory, that people were genuinely justified in voting against EU membership, and had been for years, when clearly all the data shows that at the start of the campaign, Public interest either way was at a low level, there simply wasn't an undercurrent of resentment to EU membership till it was connected with "out of control immigration" an anti immigrant feeling was given the cachet of being reasonable and "patriotic" the suggestion was rammed down their throats under the pretence it had always been there
The Evidence of that graph says exactly the opposite.
And lets be honest immigration was in all probability what swayed the vote against the EU, not the economy, which most voters don't understand anyway.
The Government want already trained people to come here rather than subsidise education, which frankly in a civilised nation should be taken as a normal policy
The reason that was clear, it was simply economics at the expense of our own children and it won't change because the Government not the EU are, and always have been responsible for that situation, and have said it will remain the same.
The notion that this would mean more well paid jobs for "our own" brightest and best was then thrown out of the window citing cost by the Government, proving it was their fault and poor policies all along and they had blamed the EU not themselves.
So the prop that supported the Brexit vote has crumbled to dust.

The EU doesn't need to change, this Government does, and either it will .......
or there will be trouble, as it hasn't understood that the Brexit vote wasn't against the EU
It was against the Government, and there was no other way it could be expressed.

And what has the Government done? attacked the poor yet again, as it hasn't the sense to see where this is going to lead, and it simply cannot change it's ways , nor will it ever.

The public will gain nothing whatsoever from Brexit that is to it's advantage, the well off however will enjoy an even bigger gap in their wealth to those at the bottom.
This is precisely what all the Politicians in favour of Brexit have set out to do and will actually achieve.
 
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Woosh

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OG, please remind me when did Cameron promise a referendum on brexit?
If I am not mistaken, Cameron could see that the tories could not win the last GE unless he promised a referendum. Once the genie is out of the bottle, all dark forces are released but these dark forces (OK, the Daily Mail) can't make people vote for something that they don't like in the first place.
Place that date on your graph. You know it makes sense.
 

oldgroaner

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OG, please remind me when did Cameron promise a referendum on brexit?
If I am not mistaken, Cameron could see that the tories could not win the last GE unless he promised a referendum. Once the genie is out of the bottle, all dark forces are released but these dark forces (OK, the Daily Mail) can't make people vote for something that they don't like in the first place.
Place that date on your graph. You know it makes sense.
Sorry but that isn't true either he promised a referendum because of a perceived threat from UKIP disrupting the Tory Party, the truth is they would have won easily any way without it.
And have you forgotten the continuous campaign against the EU in the media poisoning the Public mind?
Let me give you an example.
"Too many foreigners in good jobs because of free movement of people who are fully trained who get employed before our own" trumpeted the Press.
And now the truth emerges, the Government won't pay for our own kids to get the education they need and now insists of free movement to keep the NHS going.
Tell me again that you can't make people vote for something they don't like, when all you have to do is to lie abut who is responsible for the situation in the first place.
All along from the first day I have maintained that the public have been misled with lies and there is a classic proof of my assertion.
 
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Woosh

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, the truth is they would have won easily any way without it.
Huh? in a parallel universe maybe.
Even with the promise of a referendum before then end of 2017, they only got a very small majority.
 

oldgroaner

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Huh? in a parallel universe maybe.
Even with the promise of a referendum before then end of 2017, they only got a very small majority.
They could always have broken into the telephone box where they gather to dig out the lib dems to form another coalition

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Woosh

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OG, you worry too much about the right wing press. You should stop reading the Mail and the Express. They are mainly in print, catering for an ever reducing readership.
By the time we complete brexit, at the end of the transitional period, a lot more young people who have seen the running up to brexit will vote in the 2025 GE. They will help to deliver a definitive verdict on brexit. Don't forget that we have paid into the EU a lot of money since 1973, some 300 billion Pounds net. By 2025, we'll have stopped paying into the EU, there will be a little more in the kitty.
 

Danidl

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OG, please remind me when did Cameron promise a referendum on brexit?
If I am not mistaken, Cameron could see that the tories could not win the last GE unless he promised a referendum. Once the genie is out of the bottle, all dark forces are released but these dark forces (OK, the Daily Mail) can't make people vote for something that they don't like in the first place.
Place that date on your graph. You know it makes sense.
.........

Could I recommend that both sides , remainers and brexit supporters read the attached....
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/05/the-plan-to-end-europe/521445/
 

oldgroaner

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OG, you worry too much about the right wing press. You should stop reading the Mail and the Express. They are mainly in print, catering for an ever reducing readership.
By the time we complete brexit, at the end of the transitional period, a lot more young people who have seen the running up to brexit will vote in the 2025 GE. They will help to deliver a definitive verdict on brexit. Don't forget that we have paid into the EU a lot of money since 1973, some 300 billion Pounds net. By 2025, we'll have stopped paying into the EU, there will be a little more in the kitty.
That last line of yours is a real killer and very humorous
"Don't forget that we have paid into the EU a lot of money since 1973, some 300 billion Pounds net. By 2025, we'll have stopped paying into the EU, there will be a little more in the kitty"

And who's pockets do you think it will go into until then?
The NHS
Education
Industrial and Infrastructure improvements?
Better Government?
Or
Into the Offshore Bank accounts of the rich?
And then of course where does the Government intend it to go?

Do you really honestly imagine we are going to be a succesful modern society from now on? with a growing economy?
More to the point, do you really think people will have money to spare to buy the non essential items you have to sell?
Here is some excellent advice get into a business that won't go downhill.
Say
Pawnbroker
Soup Kitchen
Poundshop
Funeral Parlour, etc.,etc.

By the way, I read the Mail and Express etc., at no personal risk, but it helps to see where the more gullible members of our society are being directed and influenced to go.
 
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Woosh

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OG and oldtom, you two have really nothing new to add other than general ranting against the tories and wild speculations without much factual bases.
Can't you see that brexit is not just about the conservative party? Is it too much effort to look beyond the crass that is printed in the Mail and the Express?
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
While the idiots amongst us seem happy to ignore the evil being perpetrated against the weakest and poorest in our society and, indeed, support it by not speaking out against the perpetrators, I shall draw attention to the lies and hypocrisy from the evil, fascist oligarchy at every opportunity.

Of course, truth is alien to idiots so it's probably wasted on them but one must try.

Miliband May energy rip-offs.png

Tom
 
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