Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

But the EU has never done a thing to stop tyrants in its entire history. Yes , it might one day be able to tackle Kim Jong but at moment EU would come second in a war with the Vatican. That's a completely ludicrous argument. NATO has kept the Wolf ( well the Bear) at bay helped in no small measure directly by USA and UK.
If Junkers and co were responsible for our defence Putin would be having raves in Buckingham palace and nude judo wrestling on lawn by now..or was that me..!?
KTM
My point was ...we are leaving. Its all over, decided and done with.
Its been that way since last June 24th. Folk can make all the (wishful thinking) comments about us not doing so..but like it or lump it...we are. I said weeks ago this decision has become electorally enforceable...advisory or not,wether we can go back or not, is irrelevant.Those in power believe they will lose power if it does not happen...so it will. If labour suddenly found a strong leader, saying right things about defence and Brexit then perhaps it could spark a GE. As it is..no chance. Remainers, like it or not, are simply too few to change the Tory's minds.
Plus ,the FTSE is still climbing. Investments are booming, some industries are optimistic and looking forward to new challenge. Afraid you have let the dogma on here affect your understanding if situation. I don't know anyone who has changed their mind and many ,like me, believe its too late any how..The decision cant or wont be changed, whichever it is makes no difference..

 

[Zlatan]

Robdon disagreed with that before I,d finished..He never even read it..
And please Robdon, explain which bit is wrong ?? Perhaps EU has a secret army that only you know about? Or, you think we wont leave..either way I,m afraid you are totally wrong.
You disagree because you saw it was written by Zlatan. That is raw prejudice, just as is agreeing with Tom/OG when they talk garbage.

 

[Danidl]

But the EU has never done a thing to stop tyrants in its entire history. Yes , it might one day be able to tackle Kim Jong but at moment EU would come second in a war with the Vatican. That's a completely ludicrous argument. NATO has kept the Wolf ( well the Bear) at bay helped in no small measure directly by USA and UK.
If Junkers and co were responsible for our defence Putin would be having raves in Buckingham palace and nude judo wrestling on lawn by now..or was that me..!?
KTM
My point was ...we are leaving. Its all over, decided and done with.
Its been that way since last June 24th. Folk can make all the (wishful thinking) comments about us not doing so..but like it or lump it...we are. I said weeks ago this decision has become electorally enforceable...advisory or not,wether we can go back or not, is irrelevant.Those in power believe they will lose power if it does not happen...so it will. If labour suddenly found a strong leader, saying right things about defence and Brexit then perhaps it could spark a GE. As it is..no chance. Remainers, like it or not, are simply too few to change the Tory's minds.
Plus ,the FTSE is still climbing. Investments are booming, some industries are optimistic and looking forward to new challenge. Afraid you have let the dogma on here affect your understanding if situation. I don't know anyone who has changed their mind and many ,like me, believe its too late any how..The decision cant or wont be changed, whichever it is makes no difference..

.. what it has done is to encourage tyrants to go down democratic ways. Why has there been such a delay in agreeing Turkey possible accession. Answer because that government is back sliding on democratic reforms.[/QUOTE]

 

[Zlatan]

????

 

[Danidl]

What is this about ? Have you got threads crossed OG ?
Not been away just loads to sort here...hopefully will be spending 10 weeks a year in Caribbean and sorting things from this end..
But back to Topic....
I was lead to believe once Art 50 is triggered our leaving EU is inevitable ? Is that not the case KTM ?? ( I,m not saying you are wrong but "THOUGHT" we now had to leave ???
ps
When I,m working haven't got time to waste putting OG , Tom and KTM straight, but then again nobody has enough time to do that..

My opinion is that the action of sending in the article 50 letter has initiated an irreversible process and the UK will , irrespective of any possible change of mind by the UK government be leaving the EU. This opinion differs from others expressed both on this forum and even in the house of lords. My rationale is as follows.
1
.there is nothing in the article 50 statement allowing a rethink or withdrawal.

2.
Were the UK seek to withdraw their letter, they would need not a qualified majority but a unanimous vote of the 27 member states. You will have noted that individual countries have individual gripes with the UK, the Gibraltar story being the most recent and who knows what other bilateral demands might be made. The longer and the more incendiary comments which arise from the UK side, the harder it will be to bridge the gaps.
3. Donald Thusk s comments echo the EU position. March29th was a bad day for Europe. The EU would like the the UK within the fold, but will not and cannot force the issue..... Not exactly the actions of a dictator or tyrant, more like that of the chairman of a board.

 

[oldgroaner]

But the EU has never done a thing to stop tyrants in its entire history.

Han't it indeed? funny how after World war one it was only 21 years before we repeated the disaster, and how many internal wars have there been between the Allied and Axis powers since then?
It has manifestly succeeded in it's primary purpose, which is now threatened by the greed of right wing politicians misleading the public and falsely blaming it for their own wrongdoings.
And now these same pro Brexit people complain that the EU is going to militarise itself? just what do you actually want? on the one hand you make a statement "the EU has never done a thing to stop tyrants in its entire history."
Then complain when it finally takes the first steps to do so, because you fear it may use that force against us.
Make your minds up, you can't have it both ways.

 

[Danidl]

????

.. problems with the quote... See the end of the message for my response

 

[oldgroaner]

My opinion is that the action of sending in the article 50 letter has initiated an irreversible process and the UK will , irrespective of any possible change of mind by the UK government be leaving the EU. This opinion differs from others expressed both on this forum and even in the house of lords. My rationale is as follows.
1
.there is nothing in the article 50 statement allowing a rethink or withdrawal.

2.
Were the UK seek to withdraw their letter, they would need not a qualified majority but a unanimous vote of the 27 member states. You will have noted that individual countries have individual gripes with the UK, the Gibraltar story being the most recent and who knows what other bilateral demands might be made. The longer and the more incendiary comments which arise from the UK side, the harder it will be to bridge the gaps.
3. Donald Thusk s comments echo the EU position. March29th was a bad day for Europe. The EU would like the the UK within the fold, but will not and cannot force the issue.

Alas I believe you are correct we are out and whatever happens there is no going back without resorting to begging and pleading.
Mind you we have already had to do that over our opening salvo over security , haven't we?

 

[Zlatan]

OG
What is EU doing NOW about Syria...
Nothing as normal...your assumption about EU and its peace keeping ability is purely about us not going to war with other members of EU...which was never going to happen anyway. They solved a problem that didn't exist..what about the real hot spots ? What did EU do inn both Gulf wars? Nothing... What did EU do in 1982..Nothing.. What is EU doing against ISIS..nothing. What is EU doing about Syria.? Nothing...See the pattern OG...EU is useless. Always has been..just talks about stuff..but call it negotiations...
Tell me one issue where EU has set a goal and achieved it. There isn't one.

 

[Danidl]

OG
What is EU doing NOW about Syria...
Nothing as normal...your assumption about EU and its peace keeping ability is purely about us not going to war with other members of EU...which was never going to happen anyway. They solved a problem that didn't exist..what about the real hot spots ? What did EU do inn both Gulf wars? Nothing... What did EU do in 1982..Nothing.. What is EU doing against ISIS..nothing. What is EU doing about Syria.? Nothing...See the pattern OG...EU is useless. Always has been..just talks about stuff..but call it negotiations...
Tell me one issue where EU has set a goal and achieved it. There isn't one.

.... Let's also include some other things it did not do....
It did not incite an Arab Spring, . It did not bomb Syria, Afghanistan, Israel, left bank, Iraq, the Kurds, Georgia, the Ukraine or the Balkans. And it is also now failing to bring war into the horn of Africa. Others did and created the problems of refugees and Isis . Funny that those warmongering nations , who did so on the basis of being peace and stability were not at the forefront of dealing with those problems.

 

[Zlatan]

.... Let's also include some other things it did not do....
It did not incite an Arab Spring, . It did not bomb Syria, Afghanistan, Israel, left bank, Iraq, the Kurds, Georgia, the Ukraine or the Balkans. And it is also now failing to bring war into the horn of Africa. Others did and created the problems of refugees and Isis . Funny that those warmongering nations , who did so on the basis of being peace and stability were not at the forefront of dealing with those problems.

But that's nothing to do with it..my wife's WI group did none of those things either...you going to hand control to them ?
Saying what a massive organisation didn't do is not a recommendation. Tell us what they have achieved ? Rebalanced inequality ? Stopped poverty ? Stopped unemployment? Kept terrorists out ? They have achieved absolutely nothing...
Thankfully we have had peace in Europe but anyone giving EU credit for that is mistaken.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG
What is EU doing NOW about Syria...
Nothing as normal...your assumption about EU and its peace keeping ability is purely about us not going to war with other members of EU...which was never going to happen anyway. They solved a problem that didn't exist..what about the real hot spots ? What did EU do inn both Gulf wars? Nothing... What did EU do in 1982..Nothing.. What is EU doing against ISIS..nothing. What is EU doing about Syria.? Nothing...See the pattern OG...EU is useless. Always has been..just talks about stuff..but call it negotiations...
Tell me one issue where EU has set a goal and achieved it. There isn't one.

You are so far off from the truth that it isn't even worth trying to convince you, as you have so far dismissed anything that isn't pro brexit, simply in order to create an argument.
The EU has done many good things and achieved much that ordinary people have benefited from, but you have no interest in them have you?
You have clearly no idea of what sort of an organisation the EU is, expecting it to do things you would prefer it to do, as if your opinion, which is contradictory anyway, matters.
You berate it for not doing things that are totally outside the remit of the treaties that govern its actions then protest it is over mighty at the same time.
Your point of view is so contradictory it is bizarre.


Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

.... Let's also include some other things it did not do....
It did not incite an Arab Spring, . It did not bomb Syria, Afghanistan, Israel, left bank, Iraq, the Kurds, Georgia, the Ukraine or the Balkans. And it is also now failing to bring war into the horn of Africa. Others did and created the problems of refugees and Isis . Funny that those warmongering nations , who did so on the basis of being peace and stability were not at the forefront of dealing with those problems.

And by comparison our government had done great things in these countries?
No it hasn't has it.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Danidl]

And by comparison our government had done great things in these countries?
No it hasn't has it.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

... Actually as Tonto may have said to the lone ranger as the Indians came over the hill .. who is this we kimo sabe.
Your government is not my government...

 

[Zlatan]

And by comparison our government had done great things in these countries?
No it hasn't has it.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

Exactly...

But prey do tell us exactly what EU has achieved...and don't try the H&S rules because countries that chose to simply ignore them.
And saying their remit isn't to reduce poverty, address the terrible distribution of wealth in EU,counter terrorism, increase social care and reduce crime / corruption is tantamount to agreeing its a useless layer of government by policy.If their remit is none of these things exactly what are all those MEP's doing all the time...oh ofcourse, setting the price of tomatoes and giving out grants for new roads that go nowhere ( as in Northern Spain)
Come on OG..what has EU really done ? Don't just say its not their remit to do anything worthwhile, what have they achieved ?
Tell me one thing.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Exactly...

But prey do tell us exactly what EU has achieved...and don't try the H&S rules because countries that chose to simply ignore them.
And saying their remit isn't to reduce poverty, address the terrible distribution of wealth in EU,counter terrorism, increase social care and reduce crime / corruption is tantamount to agreeing its a useless layer of government by policy.If their remit is none of these things exactly what are all those MEP's doing all the time...oh ofcourse, setting the price of tomatoes and giving out grants for new roads that go nowhere ( as in Northern Spain)
Come on OG..what has EU really done ? Don't just say its not their remit to do anything worthwhile, what have they achieved ?
Tell me one thing.

Stopped us having a war in Europe,that would seem something that is above everything else. Trump,May,Brexit is causing world instability that already we are talking about war with the Spanish and North Korea.
I suspect most of us having never experienced a big war in our lifetimes,I would pay euro 11 billion a year to keep away from war.
In the UK it is obvious that May has no intention to listening to the poor in the UK,her actions so far confirm that...I can see poll tax type riots in 2 years time when these people realise that Brexit has done nothing for them.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

My opinion is that the action of sending in the article 50 letter has initiated an irreversible process and the UK will , irrespective of any possible change of mind by the UK government be leaving the EU. This opinion differs from others expressed both on this forum and even in the house of lords. My rationale is as follows.
1
.there is nothing in the article 50 statement allowing a rethink or withdrawal.

2.
Were the UK seek to withdraw their letter, they would need not a qualified majority but a unanimous vote of the 27 member states. You will have noted that individual countries have individual gripes with the UK, the Gibraltar story being the most recent and who knows what other bilateral demands might be made. The longer and the more incendiary comments which arise from the UK side, the harder it will be to bridge the gaps.
3. Donald Thusk s comments echo the EU position. March29th was a bad day for Europe. The EU would like the the UK within the fold, but will not and cannot force the issue..... Not exactly the actions of a dictator or tyrant, more like that of the chairman of a board.

The EU have already confirmed in writing that they would allow us to delete A50 and stay in. The EU seem to be taking a moderate view of negotiations,it is May who is already taking an aggressive stance.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

Stopped us having a war in Europe,that would seem something that is above everything else. Trump,May,Brexit is causing world instability that already we are talking about war with the Spanish and North Korea.
I suspect most of us having never experienced a big war in our lifetimes,I would pay euro 11 billion a year to keep away from war.
In the UK it is obvious that May has no intention to listening to the poor in the UK,her actions so far confirm that...I can see poll tax type riots in 2 years time when these people realise that Brexit has done nothing for them.
KudosDave

Its done no such thing, you assume the EU has prevented war within Europe, when infact its the disparate countries choosing not to repeat stupid mistakes.The countries outside EU within Europe have not gone to war...
And what policies are in place to achieve this glorious goal ?because whatever they are individual countries can and would simply choose to ignore them, if they existed.
Canada, NZ, Australia and many others who were involved in WW2 have not gone to war since formation of EUare you giving the EU credit for that too..and what about Falklands? The EU did nothing to help, stop or end that conflict. Its a complete fabrication saying EU has prevented a war, they haven't the machinary or backbone to avoid conflict. Just tell me one positive thing they have done to prevent conflict. Nothing. Saying EU has prevented a war is pure platitude , wrong and part of the misdirection from europhiles. It hasntt even got a peace keeping force, ( of any substance) besides according to OG preventing conflict is not part of EU remit.
And blaming North Korea on Brexit is a normal remainer's ploy. How on earth you reach that one goodness only knows.
And BTW its the Spanish causing conflict over Gibraltar. A Spanish warship in UK waters ??? Are the French asking for Channel Islands, the Morocans for Canaries..Gibraltar is under UK sovereignty, it should not even be mentioned, by the EU the Spanish or us in reply to threats ( like stopping water or closing borders , which BTW the Spanish are breaking EU laws with and have done so regularly over past 5 years with no recourse from EU..)
The Spanish have been making life difficult for all folk on Gibraltar for years...not a word from EU..
I wonder if Spain will be handing over Ceuta with their views on overseas Territory? Doubt it...

 

[oldgroaner]

Exactly...

But prey do tell us exactly what EU has achieved...and don't try the H&S rules because countries that chose to simply ignore them.
And saying their remit isn't to reduce poverty, address the terrible distribution of wealth in EU,counter terrorism, increase social care and reduce crime / corruption is tantamount to agreeing its a useless layer of government by policy.If their remit is none of these things exactly what are all those MEP's doing all the time...oh ofcourse, setting the price of tomatoes and giving out grants for new roads that go nowhere ( as in Northern Spain)
Come on OG..what has EU really done ? Don't just say its not their remit to do anything worthwhile, what have they achieved ?
Tell me one thing.

One thing?
This is like the Mont Python line what did the Romans do for us?
"
What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

Not much in the eyes of someone who regards the rest of humanity as something they can profit from to the disadvantage of their fellow man, it's true.
It was never designed to make the class of people who speculate money instead of doing useful work rich.
It has socialist intentions, intended over time to improve the general lot of the people,something which takes time, and requires patience and less greed.
For all your fancy outbursts, you wouldn't understand, or want if you did.
Brexit is more your style, a chance to rip someone off.

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Guardian
"
Dismay over Liam Fox's claim of 'shared values' with Duterte's brutal regime
UK trade minister is in the Philippines to meet a president who has publicly encouraged civilians to kill drug addicts"
"Liam Fox’s declaration of “shared values” with Rodrigo Duterte, the Philippines leader whose war on drugs has killed 7,000 people, has prompted dismay about the government’s approach to human rights as it seeks post-Brexit trade deals."

Brexit at any cost even if we end up with a reputation as bad as North Korea's