Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

My Girlfriend got told to get back to her own country at macdonalds the other day. I'd chastised a young lady for tipping her rubbish out the car. You know, British values and all that. Brexit blx absolutely makes these people feel they are justified in spouting crap like this.

Sent from my Lenovo YT3-850F using Tapatalk

Yep, I said a while ago people's reaction to Brexit is far more dangerous than Brexit could ever be intrinsically..I,ve seen a few incidents that have made me think twice. I honestly think financially we will do better out of EU...but at what cost from a lunatic fringe..The poor lad now in hospital with a broken skull...but perhaps his useless idiotic attackers would just have attacked someone else without Brexit...Who knows !!!
Either way, there should not be the language of hate from anyone on either side.
Which brings me onto OG..
Saying someone told a lie is exactly same as calling them a liar. Your explanation is pedantic. You knew full well the point Woosh was making. He did not lie, but again you feel justified in jumping straight into the hate type language.. Yes by all means correct his point but come on OG stop calling folk liars.

 

[Danidl]

Missed this bit..... I'm afraid they are. Its a divorce and a new relationship. Our new relationship with the EU will be decided by the EU and then we decide if we will accept it or not. The EU is its citizens, so they are very much part of this, and Brexit as a whole. They are just a part of this process as we are in the UK.

... Actually no , the new relationship between the UK and EU will be discussed and negotiated between a set of EU negotiators and UK counterparts, the EU parliment will decide and the UK parliament can either accept it or lump it, they don't decide. This is notwithstanding any hopes and aspirations voiced at your house of lords.
The EU is not it's citizens, it is a collection of free democratic states who have freely pooled some sovereignty in some areas for enhanced cooperation, . One of which areas includes equal rights to citizens.

As non EU citizens, the UK population, in two years time will have decisions to make. Do they as loyal Englishmen wholeheartedly support their government and State in what will probably continually become a draining economic war of attrition with the EU, or do they form a resistance group and lobby for a EU referendum seeking to join an enlarged EU.?

 

[Danidl]

I also see the EU as a lot more than a trade agreement deal, its about lasting and meaningful peace between nations, its about common environmental, legal and other standards that make it fair positive etc etc. Its also about me easily being able to retire to Italy, my nieces and nephews being able to take part in the Erasmus scheme, my friends from the EU being able to come and live here....its about a host of benefits.

I fully agree which is why from the outside the brexit decision and the current UK strategy is seen as daft.

 

[Zlatan]

I fully agree which is why from the outside the brexit decision and the current UK strategy is seen as daft.

By some..

 

[Danidl]

Us leaving is punishment, they don't need to do anything....

or are you seriously expecting us to be able to leave the club and keep all the benefits?

You're also assuming that "remainers" don't consider EU citizen's their compatriots.

Personally I don't view a line in the sand anywhere to do with my geography. I'm a citizen of Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, Yorkshire, the North, England, Great Britain, UK, EU, Europe, the World. So my compatriots are different depending on where you're drawing the line.

... Your definition of citizen reminds me of the name and address I used to put on my school books in primary school except I extended it to earth, solar system, nebula universe... I wanted my books to come back to me no matter how far I flung them away!

 

[Danidl]

By some..

Can't argue with that

 

[Woosh]

I fully agree which is why from the outside the brexit decision and the current UK strategy is seen as daft.

only from a limited extend, continental Europe.
The UN have similar framework and support cooperation on a global scale.
When we leave, the intention is to continue cooperation with the EU and extend further.
Remaining means our voice is replaced by the EU's at global level.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

only from a limited extend, continental Europe.
The UN have similar framework and support cooperation on a global scale.
When we leave, the intention is to continue cooperation with the EU and extend further.
Remaining means our voice is replaced by the EU's at global level.

What???

This is a list of the countries in the UN.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Nations#Current_members

You'll not find the EU on there, because they don't represent us on the global level. We don't need to leave the EU to have a voice on the global level.

What I think you're talking about is Trade, but I'm not sure why you've mixed up the UN with the WTO... on which the EU is a member, but also according to the WTO, so is the UK.

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/org6_e.htm

 

[oldgroaner]

Which brings me onto OG..
Saying someone told a lie is exactly same as calling them a liar. Your explanation is pedantic. You knew full well the point Woosh was making. He did not lie, but again you feel justified in jumping straight into the hate type language.. Yes by all means correct his point but come on OG stop calling folk liars.

How interesting that you brought that up, as I did in fact catch you lying way back earlier in the thread (would you like me to post it all back up again?) and you didn't apologise.
And No when a person posts a lie not understanding that it is one that cannot make them a liar.
Many so called facts that have been bandied around re Brexit have been nothing but lies, yet passed on in good faith, is it your contention that that isn't true?
However you will note that since Woosh took the view that he had been insulted, I apologised as this was not my intention.
When I caught you lying I told you outright, do you imagine I would do any less for him?
Once again you are seeking to cause trouble over a matter already in the past, have you nothing better to do?
Perhaps you could try taking your own advice.

 

[flecc]

When we leave, the intention is to continue cooperation with the EU and extend further.
Remaining means our voice is replaced by the EU's at global level.

Where is the benefit in that? I suppose the myth that the EU prevents us trading everywhere.

But how is it that the products of wealthy EU members like Germany and Sweden are successfully sold in almost every country on earth?

Could it be that they are just more competent than us, rather than the EU impeding them?
.

 

[Woosh]

Where is the benefit in that? I suppose the myth that the EU prevents us trading everywhere.

But how is it that the products of wealthy EU members like Germany and Sweden are successfully sold in almost every country on earth?

Could it be that they are just more competent than us, rather than the EU impeding them?
.

The EU represents itself in international conferences, on every subject from climate change to Davos economic forum. It won't be long before it creates its own army and foreign policies.
The point on principle is democracy and self-determination. If you look upon those two and accept their value at country level, then why not the UK? The EU insists on us transferring ever more from countries to the EU, some people voted on this direction of transfer. Some believe that for better or worse, we should be the ultimate decider on our directions, not by qualified majority voting somewhere else.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The EU represents itself in international conferences, on every subject from climate change to Davos economic forum. It won't be long before it creates its own army and foreign policies.

Yes, but yet again you're assuming the EU is there representing the UK... its not. The UK are there as themselves & we're also part of the EU, so we're actually there twice! We're not excluded because we're members of the EU.

So what if the EU has foreign policy and army?? Where is the harm in that?

The point on principle is democracy and self-determination. If you look upon those two and accept their value at country level, then why not the UK? The EU insists on us transferring ever more from countries to the EU, some people voted on this direction of transfer. Some believe that for better or worse, we should be the ultimate decider on our directions, not by qualified majority voting somewhere else.

I'll look forward to you presenting the case for Southend being in Nato and the UN then because you're not happy with Southend transferring power to London.

 

[Danidl]

The EU represents itself in international conferences, on every subject from climate change to Davos economic forum. It won't be long before it creates its own army and foreign policies.
The point on principle is democracy and self-determination. If you look upon those two and accept their value at country level, then why not the UK? The EU insists on us transferring ever more from countries to the EU, some people voted on this direction of transfer. Some believe that for better or worse, we should be the ultimate decider on our directions, not by qualified majority voting somewhere else.

.. it actually does not . It doesn't have a police force it doesn't have an army and were it to seek such things it would need more and further treaties The EU is represented at the UN by ( currently ) 28 different national governments.it does have a courtesy representative to the USA, but that is not the same thing. There is no formal EU ambassador to any country. The closest thing it has to an army is the collective battalion of auditors who check on whether monies spent on agreed projects have been misappropriated and whether governments are not playing fairly in terms of state aid.

What was disturbing in the Kosovo crisis , and certain other events like Rwanda and the refugee crisis of late was precisely that there was no coherent response from the EU. In these cases the historical baggage of EU members as previous colonial powers created conflicts which they were unable to resolve. The dilemma of democracy. What is missing in your analysis is that the EU progesses by agreement not confrontation.

 

[oldgroaner]

By some..

Strategy? what Strategy?
I wasn't aware we even had one, or would that be to make threats, and if there is any opposition pretend it was all a misunderstanding?
Been there, and we've done that.
Why not try something that might work... let's see, how about using

"The old Navajo Indian trick of Screaming and Begging?"

 

[oldgroaner]

Some believe that for better or worse, we should be the ultimate decider on our directions, not by qualified majority voting somewhere else.

Is that why we have placed ourselves at the mercy of people who are about to decide our fate using those very methods?

So whichever way you look at it if we stay in our fate is decided by a Qualified Voting majority, where we have a Vote
whereas
If we leave our fate will be decided by a Qualified Voting Majority that will from now on decide the rules we trade by using let's see
A Qualified Voting Majority. and we won't have a vote at all

So we have taken back control... someone remind me what of please?

ps; Who exactly is this "we" who should be the ultimate decider of our actions if they are not already, and making a terrible mess of doing so?
Sorry, but this is really Tragi Comedy at work.

 

[flecc]

The EU represents itself in international conferences, on every subject from climate change to Davos economic forum. It won't be long before it creates its own army and foreign policies.
The point on principle is democracy and self-determination.

In what way is that different from the USA, also a large block of individual units giving up their international voice to a central government.
.

 

[Zlatan]

How interesting that you brought that up, as I did in fact catch you lying way back earlier in the thread (would you like me to post it all back up again?) and you didn't apologise.
And No when a person posts a lie not understanding that it is one that cannot make them a liar.
Many so called facts that have been bandied around re Brexit have been nothing but lies, yet passed on in good faith, is it your contention that that isn't true?
However you will note that since Woosh took the view that he had been insulted, I apologised as this was not my intention.
When I caught you lying I told you outright, do you imagine I would do any less for him?
Once again you are seeking to cause trouble over a matter already in the past, have you nothing better to do?
Perhaps you could try taking your own advice?

Predicable...as normal. You have too much time on your hands OG..get a job you useless yoof.

 

[oldgroaner]

Predicable...as normal. You have too much time on your hands OG..get a job you useless yoof.

Welcome back from your jaunt to Tropical parts, at 73 years of age I really can't seem to see a good reason to get a job.

 

[oldtom]

I also see the EU as a lot more than a trade agreement deal, its about lasting and meaningful peace between nations, its about common environmental, legal and other standards that make it fair positive etc etc. Its also about me easily being able to retire to Italy, my nieces and nephews being able to take part in the Erasmus scheme, my friends from the EU being able to come and live here....its about a host of benefits.

It seems like many, many thousands of posts ago that such sentiments were last expressed but you are absolutely right, 'KTM', that being a member of the EU is about far more than an extremely large corporation balance sheet.

I really dislike the way so many take to presenting numbers acquired from various sources to demonstrate how the UK could be/will be better off following secession from the EU. While the economics of, 'in the EU - out of EU', may be worth discussing, the numbers involved are only a small part of the cost/benefit analysis as there are are so many other facets to be considered, some very visible, others less so. There are so many dimensions to membership which cannot simply be costed in monetary terms that those who fail to see beyond their 'balance sheet' mentality clearly do not understand the importance of the issue of togetherness.

Even if we were to accept that EU membership is a money-pit, then one has to imagine that more than a few other EU member states would have worked that out a long time ago and bailed out. That hasn't happened; it is not even being considered seriously by other members, save for the right-wing extremist groups in those countries where they exist and are allowed the freedom to vent their evil message because they are not considered a political force; only a nuisance in the same way as the 'Monster Raving Looney Party' but minus the fun part.

The increasingly desperate PM is on tour seeking any friends she can find but is bringing the country into further disrepute by aligning the UK with Saudi Arabia and Jordan not to mention her previous overtures to Israel. The woman has no shame and between her current posturing with a bunch of ruthless, arms-dealing sheikhs and her previous cosying up to an American President, more dangerous than Kim Jong un in Korea, she has ably demonstrated her unstateswomanlike qualities for all the world to see.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

Who exactly is this "we" who should be the ultimate decider of our actions

the "we" is currently the house of commons.