Brexit, for once some facts.

[OxygenJames]

"the rate of immigration in some parts of the country has been WAY above what the local area can effectively integrate - way way WAY too high. And those localities feel it."

So why is socially deprived benefits hotspot Clacton-on-Sea with UKIP's only MP, have a white ethnicity of 97.3% (88.3% in England and Wales) with only 4.3% residents borne outside the UK (England & Wales 12.3%).

Did you think the Clacton residents voted in UKIP as protest against Tories (and other parties) ignoring their plight or are they blaming EU for the plight they are in?

How will 'taking back control' after Brexit and supposedly cutting immigration solve Clacton's problems?

Do you think there'll be an influx of American and Chinese tourists flooding into Clacton creating an economic boomtown?

Its not just about taking back control of the borders - which as you say may make no difference to a place like Clacton. There are other more important considerations. Like who we can send to jail. Like who we can vote out of power. Democracy was at stake here. Is always at stake.

I know almost nothing about Clacton. I do know there are some very deprived areas. And for all sorts of reasons. There are affluent areas too. And of course nearly everbody here has a standard of living way above the world's average. We are lucky indeed. Weath and common law and a democratic government - ie one we can vote out if we want. Unlike half of those in Brussels who were trying to govern us.

Time to make a swift exit. Hard or not I don't care in the end because we just have to do this now. And I am almost certain we will. But there will be many who even at this 11th hour think they can 'save the day'.

 

[OxygenJames]

It all comes down to who has the right to say "We the people". Who has that right? Well on this matter. I will say I do. I have the right as did everyother man and woman and while we're going to do our best to play to the social rules also to every Trannie and whatever-else unusual sexes there are out there - We the people voted. And we said no thanks we want to leave. And according to democracy - we claim that right. Try to take it away and you would release forces beyond your control. Thats not meant as a threat more a statement of the bleedin' obvious really.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Its not just about taking back control of the borders - which as you say may make no difference to a place like Clacton. There are other more important considerations. Like who we can send to jail. Like who we can vote out of power. Democracy was at stake here. Is always at stake.

I know almost nothing about Clacton. I do know there are some very deprived areas. And for all sorts of reasons. There are affluent areas too. And of course nearly everbody here has a standard of living way above the world's average. We are lucky indeed. Weath and common law and a democratic government - ie one we can vote out if we want. Unlike half of those in Brussels who were trying to govern us.

Time to make a swift exit. Hard or not I don't care in the end because we just have to do this now. And I am almost certain we will. But there will be many who even at this 11th hour think they can 'save the day'.

Clacton is very much a retirement area,the communications with London are not good as a commuter town.
It is full of old peoples homes and was also a heavily Leave voting area....which is strange when most of those homes are staffed by EU workers on minimum wage,doing jobs that Brits dont want to do for that money....old Doris who voted out because she wants the 'good old days back' is not going to be happy if there is nobody left to care for her!!!!
I have a friend who runs such a home,it used to be very lucrative but new rules and regs have knocked the profits,he is packing it in to convert the property into flats and sell it off....this will happen to a lot of these homes unless the government changes its attitude to social care.
THe answer dont get old,hehe...
KudosDave

 

[OxygenJames]

Underlines what I've already forecast, that we will need to get more competitive in order to survive. The bad news is that beyond the EU, we'll have to reward ourselves far less and work much harder to compete in the wider world.

So that means a much lower standard of living eventually post Brexit if we don't retain the EU trading that we currently enjoy. It's here that Theresa May's apparent acceptance of a hard Brexit possibility is so dangerous.
.

Contrast that with London, by far the most economically successful part of the UK, where only 46% of the population are white British born.

Little wonder we voted to remain in the EU and couldn't care less about "taking control" and other such mythologies.
.

They can be controlled in London. We have the money. Outside London they form their own areas - take over vaste areas. They can't afford the property in London to do that. Go to Luton sometime. Go see for yourself how little of England is left in some places. Its not right. I am with Tommy Robbinson in this. You can call him and me a racist till the cows come home but I get where he is coming from. Parts of Luton you would not recognise as in this country if you were not aware of it. London is a bubble. It has SO much money it can hide ALL the problems. You want to live with Sharia law? Do you? You're thinking like those that do. You think 'taking control' is a mythology? You're deluding yourself.

 

[Kudoscycles]

It all comes down to who has the right to say "We the people". Who has that right? Well on this matter. I will say I do. I have the right as did everyother man and woman and while we're going to do our best to play to the social rules also to every Trannie and whatever-else unusual sexes there are out there - We the people voted. And we said no thanks we want to leave. And according to democracy - we claim that right. Try to take it away and you would release forces beyond your control. Thats not meant as a threat more a statement of the bleedin' obvious really.

We the people voted and we are going to leave.....we won,you lost,yah-boo....I will hold the camera when you all jump off the cliff,hehe
Personally I cant see riots because we dont leave. I can see riots because we have left and some not got what they expected....this government have overhyped the expectations.
Do you honestly think that the poorer areas of the north are going to be wealthier and/or happier post Brexit....just like Trump's rust belt is going to get more jobs after he builds 'the wall'
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

They can be controlled in London. We have the money. Outside London they form their own areas - take over vaste areas. They can't afford the property in London to do that. Go to Luton sometime. Go see for yourself how little of England is left in some places. Its not right. I am with Tommy Robbinson in this. You can call him and me a racist till the cows come home but I get where he is coming from. Parts of Luton you would not recognise as in this country if you were not aware of it. London is a bubble. It has SO much money it can hide ALL the problems. You want to live with Sharia law? Do you? You're thinking like those that do. You think 'taking control' is a mythology? You're deluding yourself.

Only flown out of Luton airport once,never again,awful disorganised place....who was it said.....'have you flown in on the wings of a dove,nah Luton airport'....hehe
Vauxhall leaving could be a disaster.
Just remembered Lorraine Chase.
KudosDave

 

[OxygenJames]

On this Tillson I am of completely the opposite view....

I thought,mid January,that she stated we are quitting the single market and quitting the customs union....Bertie O'Hearne,the ex Irish prime minister,stated the same on the TV today.
O'Hearne when asked whether to sort the Irish border problem Ireland would consider leaving the EU...his reply was that the Irish are often thought of as crazy but we are not stupid.
It is Theresa May's masters (Rees-Mogg,IDS,Redwood and Co) are the ones pushing for a hard Brexit,they wont let her go for a soft Brexit. The majority of the Tory party are impotent against the right wingers,not sure why? Perhaps they are frightened of looking like Labour,indecisive and disorganised,without an electable leader....they are conscious of keeping their seats and jobs,selfish and undemocratic interest.
KudosDave

We are definitely leaving the single market. It's a price we have to pay. It may cost us a bit this is true. Can't argue with that. I would only argue the benefits to democracy far outweigh that cost. Keep government close. As close as you can. Brussels was getting further and further away and we had fewer and fewer voting opportunities to make a real difference. This has. This has really shook things up. It had to happen. Democracy was at stake. You can not allow your votes to be taken so easily. We fought two fricking wars to keep hold of that.

 

[OxygenJames]

I think she is trying to place the notion into the minds of the EU that the UK intends leaving and if that means hard BREXIT, that is exactly what will happen. This will hurt both sides and I can't believe that either side want that, but she is sounding as though the UK are prepared to accept the hit.

Now contrast that stance against one of her publicly stating, whatever happens, we must retain access to the single market. The UK can't afford hard BREXIT because it will damage us severely. We are going to leave the EU, but its highly likely that we will be required to accept some pre-conditions in order to retain membership of the single market.

Which is the best place to start negotiations from? For example, you sometimes see people advertising second hand cars stating they want between say £4K and £5K. How much do you think they end up getting? Transpose the car scenario to the BREXIT negotiations and all that May is doing by all this hard BREXIT talk is saying it's £5K or nothing.

Personally, I don't think she will go for hard BREXIT, her masters won't allow it.

Oh this is interesting. Who do you think her masters are Tillson? I had no idea you had some conspiracy thing going on?

 

[OxygenJames]

Clacton is very much a retirement area,the communications with London are not good as a commuter town.
It is full of old peoples homes and was also a heavily Leave voting area....which is strange when most of those homes are staffed by EU workers on minimum wage,doing jobs that Brits dont want to do for that money....old Doris who voted out because she wants the 'good old days back' is not going to be happy if there is nobody left to care for her!!!!
I have a friend who runs such a home,it used to be very lucrative but new rules and regs have knocked the profits,he is packing it in to convert the property into flats and sell it off....this will happen to a lot of these homes unless the government changes its attitude to social care.
THe answer dont get old,hehe...
KudosDave

Yes my Dad died couple of years back in one of those homes. And a lot of the staff were from Poland. Its not an easy job. Some people come to work and good on them. Work is good for the soul. Not a popular idea these days. Fame is now the new work. You get more kudos for being famous (no matter what the reasons) than you do for working. How crazy has it become? Brexit is the first sensible thing for ages.

 

[Kudoscycles]

We are definitely leaving the single market. It's a price we have to pay. It may cost us a bit this is true. Can't argue with that. I would only argue the benefits to democracy far outweigh that cost. Keep government close. As close as you can. Brussels was getting further and further away and we had fewer and fewer voting opportunities to make a real difference. This has. This has really shook things up. It had to happen. Democracy was at stake. You can not allow your votes to be taken so easily. We fought two fricking wars to keep hold of that.

And Theresa May is democratic,she is a dictator....that mock laugh of hers in the commons had Satanic overtones. She will try to get rid of the Lords next....we have the master plan,hehe
I can just see May insisting on a Hitler style salute every time she comes into the commons.
Thank goodness all these right wingers are so old,they may die off before they can do any more damage.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Yes my Dad died couple of years back in one of those homes. And a lot of the staff were from Poland. Its not an easy job. Some people come to work and good on them. Work is good for the soul. Not a popular idea these days. Fame is now the new work. You get more kudos for being famous (no matter what the reasons) than you do for working. How crazy has it become? Brexit is the first sensible thing for ages.

I have a copyright on this forum for the word 'kudos',please refrain from using it.
KudosDave

 

[OxygenJames]

Only flown out of Luton airport once,never again,awful disorganised place....who was it said.....'have you flown in on the wings of a dove,nah Luton airport'....hehe
Vauxhall leaving could be a disaster.
KudosDave

It really is terrible. Like ghetto. Nobody talks about it. Except Tommy - he has no choice he grew up there. Everybody else its like a disease you don't dare mention. Look the other way. Fame! Fame! Money! Sex! Over Here!

 

[OxygenJames]

I have a copyright on this forum for the word 'kudos',please refrain from using it.
KudosDave

How about a deal Kudos/Dave? I pay you - and I am allowed to use the word 'kudos'? Hmmm? No. Hang on. This can not be so. How can a word be banned because somebody else has claimed it? Surely tis not so.

 

[OxygenJames]

And Theresa May is democratic,she is a dictator....that mock laugh of hers in the commons had Satanic overtones. She will try to get rid of the Lords next....we have the master plan,hehe
I can just see May insisting on a Hitler style salute every time she comes into the commons.
Thank goodness all these right wingers are so old,they may die off before they can do any more damage.
KudosDave

Dave you need help. Stay where you are - I will call somebody.

 

[OxygenJames]

We the people voted and we are going to leave.....we won,you lost,yah-boo....I will hold the camera when you all jump off the cliff,hehe
Personally I cant see riots because we dont leave. I can see riots because we have left and some not got what they expected....this government have overhyped the expectations.
Do you honestly think that the poorer areas of the north are going to be wealthier and/or happier post Brexit....just like Trump's rust belt is going to get more jobs after he builds 'the wall'
KudosDave

I think it depends on what happens from here on in.

If those areas in the North do not also undergo some kind of transformation within themselves - then I think you're right nothing will change and they will still be depressed areas. But its impossible to say. Because just the vote has already had some impact - even before anything real has changed. Thats the nature of the beast these days - opinion matters. 'Opinion' becomes part of the facts. How things play out from now will be interesting. The world is entering a phase unlike any before. Now of course you could say OK James but that is true all the time. And in a way yes - but I think now is just so fricking interesting. So many different forces coming together. Which ones will prevail? Which ones will fail or succeed?

Truth is we don't know. And nobody likes to live in I don't know.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Vita Bona Est....
KudosDave

 

[Danidl]

I think people read this all wrong.
Successful cities attract immigrants who help them getting even more successful. Unsuccessful cities/towns attract fewer and definitely poorer, less talented immigrants, making them even worse off than before.
Clacton has a particularly amiable MP, I suspect his personal attraction counts.

.. are there not also social conditions, areas with immigrants will have the types of shops and services they will want.and expect.. How many halal or kosher butchers, in all white neighbourhoods?

 

[flecc]

They can be controlled in London. We have the money. Outside London they form their own areas - take over vaste areas. They can't afford the property in London to do that. Go to Luton sometime. Go see for yourself how little of England is left in some places. Its not right. I am with Tommy Robbinson in this. You can call him and me a racist till the cows come home but I get where he is coming from. Parts of Luton you would not recognise as in this country if you were not aware of it. London is a bubble. It has SO much money it can hide ALL the problems. You want to live with Sharia law? Do you? You're thinking like those that do. You think 'taking control' is a mythology? You're deluding yourself.

So much nonsense in one post! I'm very familiar with Luton, I owned a bungalow at Caddington just outside and worked in the town for a while so know the immigration situation there. My parents lived there for 37 years. Still have relatives in the area.

And London has many areas dominated by one cultural group and we celebrate it, not thinking "it's not right" as you do. And I'm not just speaking of the well known like Chinatown, but of numerous lesser known ones, like Stockwell SW9 being the Portugese quarter, like Kilburn being an Irish quarter, like the Russian enclave around the Brompton Oratory. I enjoy them because I can eat at their restaurants where I'm welcome and enjoy their fine national foods.

I hope you can understand that as I'm a white British born person and therefore one of just another minority, I can't see our majority non-white and/or non-British born as being wrong. If they are wrong, as another minority so am I.

I don't care that Greater London no longer looks like the human near monoculture that it was in the 1930s, '40s and '50s. I very much prefer it now, and am not so deluded as think that I might ever be bound by Sharia law.

I actually feel sorry for you, since you are doomed to die an unhappy person due to the impossibility of you ever seeing again the Britain of the past that you liked so much. The cat is out of the bag, our ethnic mix, global trading, the influence of the world's large power blocks and our dependence on other countries means there will be little change in our future society.
.

 

[OxygenJames]

Vita Bona Est....
KudosDave

Yes.

 

[OxygenJames]

So much nonsense in one post! I'm very familiar with Luton, I owned a bungalow at Caddington just outside and worked in the town for a while so know the immigration situation there. My parents lived there for 37 years. Still have relatives in the area.

And London has many areas dominate by one cultural group and we celebrate it, not thinking "it's not right" as you do. And I'm not just speaking of the well known like Chinatown, but of numerous lesser known ones, like Stockwell SW9 being the Portugese quarter, like Kilburn being an Irish quarter, like the Russian enclave around the Brompton Oratory. I enjoy them because I can eat at their restaurants where I'm welcome and enjoy their fine national foods.

I hope you can understand that as I'm a white British born person and therefore one of just another minority, I can't see our majority non-white and/or non-British born as being wrong. If they are wrong, as another minority so am I.

I don't care that Greater London no longer looks like the human near monoculture that it was in the 1930s, '40s and '50s. I very much prefer it now, and am not so deluded as think that I might ever be bound by Sharia law.

I actually feel sorry for you, since you are doomed to die an unhappy person due to the impossibility of you ever seeing again the Britain of the past that you liked so much. The cat is out of the bag, our ethnic mix, global trading, the influence of the world's large power blocks and our dependence on other countries means there will be little change in our future society.
.

Flecc maybe we need to press re-set on our relationship. I do not intend such things as you think. I have no trouble with immigration or immigrants where they can integrate with certain basic characteristics. But some cultures think girls genitals are to be cut off. Really. This is a belief. They disregard the pain and the suffering. And others see women - still - as things they own. This is the problem I speak - not of international coffee shops and people being decent to eachother. It is all about such decency. And those that do not respect it - are not allowed in. Thats how I see it. Some cultures are not mixable.