Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

And I think this whole move away from supra-nationalism is good - independent states figuring things out - rather than trying to impose global rules.

You are doomed to disappointment, here's an example near to our hearts. We are still going to be bound by EU rules, due to the impossibility of unravelling the last 44 years. That's what Theresa May's inclusion bill is about, converting all the adopted EU laws into UK ones in a single swipe.

So we are stuck with the EU pedelec law and the EU type approval rules which ban throttles. Now add to that the fact that many components of the EU technical regulations are derived from and follow United Nations world wide regulations, for just one example, the way United Nations regulation UNC78 affects braking requirements.

You see we will continue to be bound by supra-national law, not just EU but world-wide law, it's the way things are.

And as the EU makes changes in their regulations in future, we will also be adopting those changes, since the inclusion law means the regulatory rules referred to in our ex EU laws specify the EU law as being the arbiter.

So we are in a "gotcha" situation, we may dream of independence, but it's illusory. We will still be very dependent and controlled from outside in many ways.
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.

 

[OxygenJames]

I agree that I wouldn't have liked Clinton either, as here, all the options were rubbish.

But the two EU courts have done nothing but good for us, putting right so many long term wrongs and I fear for the future without them.

And you shouldn't believe the lie that we couldn't control immigration. We always had that right, even with EU citizens, but our governments chose not to for economic reasons. The proof is that so much of the immigration wasn't from the EU.
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Well sure. Its all a very contentious. Thank goodness for amazing electric bikes and the coming summer to distract us from such concerns - if at least for a few moments.

Since I was last on here I've moved out of London and am now in Surrey - those wonderful Surrey hills. Area of outstanding natural beauty and all that. Some daffs are already out - things are going to explode in the next few weeks. So let's not spend the whole time arguing about politics huh? Though OK a few arguments about politics is OK I guess.

Any new bikes worth buying these days? I am still happy with my Haibike (picture top left) - but is there anything I've missed?

 

[flecc]

Since I was last on here I've moved out of London and am now in Surrey - those wonderful Surrey hills.

Any new bikes worth buying these days? I am still happy with my Haibike (picture top left) - but is there anything I've missed?

I'm at the top edge of Surrey, the trees on the North Downs boundary seen from my lounge window, but I do little riding these days for various reasons. Mostly walking in that countryside now.

I haven't kept fully up to date with the new e-bike models, too many of them in a constant stream of announcements, though they mostly duplicate others offerings and mostly use a limited range of known motors, like those from Bosch, Yamaha and Bafang.

Or for those who like to live dangerously and don't mind taking risks, there's also the Impulse, Brose and some other motor units.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Well. All my Amercian friends (well that's not quite true. 12 of the 13 to be honest) - think Trump is doing just fine. As in he is doing exactly what he said he would do. Anybody listen to his speech last week? - talking about the movement against supra-national bodies and back to nation states? Nice. Liked that. Also liked May couple of weeks back saying 'if you're a citizen of the world you're a citizen of nowhere'. Right. Enough of this 'we're all alike' nonsense. We're NOT all alike. Enough of this being told how to think. Enough of being talked down to by people who think they know better. Darn I am so happy. Go Trump. Go Brexit. The worlds' a changin folks.

Thank you for your contribution
A little comic relief is always welcome on here
Who are they going to threaten with all that shiny hardware he's buying while cutting their services and making them pay for it?

 

[oldgroaner]

Some sectors will be adversely affected before a deal with the EU is concluded but they will recover quickly after that. The consensus is brexit will be beneficial in the long term. You don't believe so? find an economist that does not believe that in 20 years time, the UK will do better outside the EU.

Find one to say it will do better that can offer more than a pious hope, none of them are clairvoyant.
You really have no facts to support your argument do you?

 

[Woosh]

there is no need for pious hope.
You can base your argument on economics.
Demand, supply, unit of labour cost, production capacity, inward investment.
After we have a deal with the EU, we'll grow at faster pace out than in.

 

[oldtom]

Its going to be almost impossible to mess up our bargaining position. Like almost impossible. Like we are in SUCH a strong position. Even that idiot Blair and side-kick Major can do little to mess this up. Our French and German friends have much more pressing matters to be concerned with right now. This is all going to turn out just fine boys and girls. Just you wait and see.

Judging from your sudden appearance in this thread and the content of your string of posts, either you're smoking or shooting some really strong stuff or you had an extra bowl of stupid this morning.

Like everyone else, you have no possible idea how any secession will pan out yet you proclaim that things are going well both here and in the USA. Ok, I admire your optimism but you seem to have lost any grip you may once have had on reality.

If the people who really count decide to abort their British-based businesses, then we are in big trouble. Today, we hear that in spite of promises made to them just a few short months ago, Nissan are now re-thinking their Sunderland operation and may decide to close it down in favour of basing themselves in an EU domain.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-nissan-uk-business-jobs-7000-employees-car-plant-sunderland-a7603721.html?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral

Now, being as how Nissan were offered and now seem prepared to forego, some kind of deal by this corrupt government, a deal that remains secret and we taxpayers can't be permitted to know the details, one wonders how many other foreign-owned enterprises, employing large numbers of people, are also reconsidering their positions in the light of May's recent pronouncements about a hard 'Brexit'.

These kinds of corporate decisions, allied to recent statements from two ex-PMs, plus the murmurings from senior House of Lords members do not reflect your confidence in a happy outcome for the UK.

I'd be delighted if you could point me in the direction of where, when and how the nation and in particular, working people, the disabled, the unemployed, pensioners and school-leavers might be better off than today. If you can provide some detail there, I shall be ever so grateful.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

find an economist that does not believe that in 20 years time, the UK will do better outside the EU.

Only a very stupid economist would wish to speculate on the economic circumstances which might prevail in 20 years time. Even if one were found, I doubt he'd wager his pension on it at Wm Hill!

Tom

 

[OxygenJames]

there is no need for pious hope.
You can base your argument on economics.
Demand, supply, unit of labour cost, production capacity, inward investment.
After we have a deal with the EU, we'll grow at faster pace out than in.

Yes.

 

[flecc]

Nissan are now re-thinking their Sunderland operation and may decide to close it down in favour of basing themselves in an EU domain.

I confidently forecast this at the time of the referendum for all the car building operations in England if we leave the EU. Most are just assembly plants so easily and cheaply moved. Even a bigger one like Nissan can easlily move. Ford once had 40,000 working at Dagenham, but now it's only a few hundreds doing engine assembly, all the rest of their jobs now in mainland Europe.

Not only would such moves avoid the border problems, it would also produce large savings with the new plants in lower wage Eastern Europe.
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[oldtom]

After we have a deal with the EU, we'll grow at faster pace out than in.

You keep making these rash statements with not a shred of evidence to support your assertion.

Once again, you are just posting wishful thinking.

Tom

 

[OxygenJames]

Judging from your sudden appearance in this thread and the content of your string of posts, either you're smoking or shooting some really strong stuff or you had an extra bowl of stupid this morning.

Like everyone else, you have no possible idea how any secession will pan out yet you proclaim that things are going well both here and in the USA. Ok, I admire your optimism but you seem to have lost any grip you may once have had on reality.

If the people who really count decide to abort their British-based businesses, then we are in big trouble. Today, we hear that in spite of promises made to them just a few short months ago, Nissan are now re-thinking their Sunderland operation and may decide to close it down in favour of basing themselves in an EU domain.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-nissan-uk-business-jobs-7000-employees-car-plant-sunderland-a7603721.html?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral

Now, being as how Nissan were offered and now seem prepared to forego, some kind of deal by this corrupt government, a deal that remains secret and we taxpayers can't be permitted to know the details, one wonders how many other foreign-owned enterprises, employing large numbers of people, are also reconsidering their positions in the light of May's recent pronouncements about a hard 'Brexit'.

These kinds of corporate decisions, allied to recent statements from two ex-PMs, plus the murmurings from senior House of Lords members do not reflect your confidence in a happy outcome for the UK.

I'd be delighted if you could point me in the direction of where, when and how the nation and in particular, working people, the disabled, the unemployed, pensioners and school-leavers might be better off than today. If you can provide some detail there, I shall be ever so grateful.

Tom

Well. If you're getting your 'news' from the Independent - there's not much hope for you. My Mum gets that rag - today - for example - I read on the front page 'Majors devastating attack on the government'. What? 'Devastating'? huh? Come again? Major and Blair - what a joke. You want to align yourself with those two? Good luck with that.

You want me to point you in the right direction? Try Tim Worstall. On twitter. And what he writes in his stuff at Forbes - but you can start with him on Twitter. Or the Adam Smith Institute. Follow them on Twitter. They're both way more clued up on the economics. And they are VERY for us leaving. Free trade and all that. Innovation.

Remember what Thatcher said 'Socialism is fine until you run out of other people's money'.

 

[OxygenJames]

You keep making these rash statements with not a shred of evidence to support your assertion.

Once again, you are just posting wishful thinking.

Tom

I'll take some wishful thinking over the negative cr*p we had to listen to from the IMF and the bank of England and Obama and pretty much EVERYBODY who thought they knew what they were talking about.

 

[tillson]

Ford once had 40,000 working at Dagenham, but now it's only a few hundreds doing engine assembly, all the rest of their jobs now in mainland Europe.

Not only would such moves avoid the border problems, it would also produce large savings with the new plants in lower wage Eastern Europe.
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Presumably all of this has nothing to do with our EU membership then? Ford scaled down Dagenham ceasing vehicle production in 2002, whilst we were members of the EU.

Lower wage Eastern Europe will still exist tempting companies to re-locate there regardless of whether we remain in the EU? Just like much of Cadbury's Chocolate is now made in Poland and not the West Midlands. This all happened whilst we have been EU members. How can large companies moving out of the UK be blamed on BREXIT? They have been doing it for years.

 

[OxygenJames]

Only a very stupid economist would wish to speculate on the economic circumstances which might prevail in 20 years time. Even if one were found, I doubt he'd wager his pension on it at Wm Hill!

Tom

Didn't stop the IMF or the bank of England telling us the world would end if we voted to leave. Oh no hang on - it was Cameron telling us the chances of WW3 would go up. God it felt SOOO good to tell them to go (you can figure out then end of this sentence all by your very selves).

 

[OxygenJames]

Presumably all of this has nothing to do with our EU membership then? Ford have massively scaled down Dagenham ceasing vehicle production in 2002, whilst we were members of the EU.

Lower wage Eastern Europe will still exist tempting companies to re-locate there regardless of whether we remain in the EU? Just like much of Cadbury's Chocolate is now made in Poland and not the West Midlands. This all happened whilst we have been EU members. How can large companies moving out of the UK be blamed on BREXIT? They have been doing it for years.

Trouble is we're all guilty of looking for evidence to prove ourselves right - building a case as the psychologists will tell you. So we ignore evidence that supports any counter view to our own. Like the whole global warming thing - watch what passes for evidence there and each side refusing to listen to anything that suggests the other side may have a point. Like polar bears - you know their population has gone UP in the last 5 years - yes? Seriously. Those things are doing just fine. Oh. And Michael Mann's Hockey stick - have you looked at what passes for science with that? Oh please let us dig up the coal and get rid of those terrible wind farms.

 

[OxygenJames]

You keep making these rash statements with not a shred of evidence to support your assertion.

Once again, you are just posting wishful thinking.

Tom

Here you are Tom - try this.

 

[tillson]

Does this sound like a threat? From the current team in the US.

A billionaire investor who said Brexit was “a God-given opportunity” to take trade from the UK has been confirmed as Donald Trump’s Commerce Secretary.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/wibur-ross-donald-trump-commerce-chief-brexit-god-given-opportunity-trade-uk-eu-europe-a7603861.html

I think these comments were made before he was appointed by Trump. The Donald is in charge now, he will keep him on a tight leash.

 

[Danidl]

Trouble is we're all guilty of looking for evidence to prove ourselves right - building a case as the psychologists will tell you. So we ignore evidence that supports any counter view to our own. Like the whole global warming thing - watch what passes for evidence there and each side refusing to listen to anything that suggests the other side may have a point. Like polar bears - you know their population has gone UP in the last 5 years - yes? Seriously. Those things are doing just fine. Oh. And Michael Mann's Hockey stick - have you looked at what passes for science with that? Oh please let us dig up the coal and get rid of those terrible wind farms.

........Come back Zatlan all is forgiven.
If you are stating something as a fact then you should either provide the evidence from your own studies ... Called original research, or you should provide references to the work of others eg websites. To do neither is negligence, hearsay and gossip .
And in case you want to complain about competence, I do have a physical sciences background.

 

[flecc]

Presumably all of this has nothing to do with our EU membership then? Ford scaled down Dagenham ceasing vehicle production in 2002, whilst we were members of the EU.

It was abundantly clear that I used that Ford example as an illustration that it was easy to move a large car plant. To make it even clearer I gave the separate reasons why Nissan et al might move, which would be due to Brexit.
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