Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Can't see that been replaced by anything in next 20 or 30 years??? Any ideas? Perhaps hydrogen fuel cells or Hyrdogen ICE? But suspect alternative will take some finding. And will it be worthwhile environmentally, still profitable and desirable...
Our old ICE technology takes some beating.

Agreed, but ICE will lose some of its advantage as it has to clean up its act as it runs in those fringe applications where battery electric won't do. A lot of its output will be absorbed by the technology to make them zero emission.

And structural change shouldn't be discounted. We once used rail much more for goods and passengers and will return to that over time. Many other countries already are doing and even the trans Siberian railway has been fully electrified from Europe to the Far East. I'm sure the madness of thousands of long distance trucks travelling from the Near East into and across Europe or even the length of our own country will disappear once we realise how stupid that is.

As for hydrogen, the biggest fallacy about it is to think of it as a fuel source. It needs to be created first. The principal drawback is the that it takes thrice the energy to produce hydrogen by electrolysis, the cleanest method, than the hydrogen will embody.

A case of sustainable hydrogen generation is found on the windy Orkney Islands, which have many wind turbines. Despite the popularity of electric vehicles on the island, there is nearly always excess electricity. They can’t send much of it to the mainland because of inadequate interconnector capacity. So they generate hydrogen which is used to power the ferry to the mainland. Unfortunately, to date excess wind power only produces a limited amount of hydrogen worldwide.

1. The main aspect holding back widespread hydrogen fuel cell adoption is the cost of generating hydrogen and developing the hydrogen distribution network.
2. A report by the German Association for Electrical, Electronic & Information Technologies (VDE) electrical standards and research group was undertaken to compare the cost-effectiveness of battery electric multiple units (BEMU) and hydrogen electric multiple units (HEMU). The study determined that BEMUs are currently 35% cheaper to acquire and operate than hydrogen fuel cell equivalent trains (hydrail).

The study assumed that only ‘green hydrogen’ produced from renewable electricity sources will be used. However, in practice much cheaper ‘grey hydrogen’ by-product of chemical and oil industry processes may well be used.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Call for Jeremy Corbyn to be investigated over 'failure to declare legal costs support'

A critic of the ex-Labour leader writes to the parliamentary standards watchdog over claims Mr Corbyn did not follow MPs' rules.

news.sky.com

They are all as bad as each other. This fiasco has been brought about by another Labour MP. Does that say something else about the Labour Party?

 

[oldgroaner]

Call for Jeremy Corbyn to be investigated over 'failure to declare legal costs support'

A critic of the ex-Labour leader writes to the parliamentary standards watchdog over claims Mr Corbyn did not follow MPs' rules.

news.sky.com

They are all as bad as each other. This fiasco has been brought about by another Labour MP. Does that say something else about the Labour Party?

A fair bet would be that the member involved belongs to the Labour Friends of Israel, (but hush, we mustn't mention them, or the generous gifts they give)

 

[oyster]

I see that Johnson has declared a property interest in Oxfordshire - I assume the one that was publicised as being for rent.

From 9 April 2021, residential property in Oxfordshire: (i). (Registered 04 May 2021)

Not sure why he would suddenly acquire that interest (seemingly part owned with Marian Wheeler) on 9 April 2021. Or was it just that the declaration that suddenly appeared?

 

[Zlatan]

A fair bet would be that the member involved belongs to the Labour Friends of Israel, (but hush, we mustn't mention them, or the generous gifts they give)

Neil Coyle - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Interesting reading... Thought you, d like his description of Boris and Smog..
Seems he dislikes Tories and Corbyn in fairly equal measure... Piers Morgan isn't on his Christmas Card list either. No mention of Hamas, Israel or Palestine..
He, s the one who described Corbyn's stance on Brexit as Bu11 sh! T... Got that right then.

 

[Danidl]

Opel have been wholly French owned by PSA (Peugeot) for over four years now, so it's likely they've been heavily involved.

However I don't see this as an important development for a number of reasons. Most vans travel relatively short daily distances and batteries are already serving them more than adequately. The lithium shortage is looking increasingly mythical. Kerbside charging doesn't apply to vans which predominantly recharge at base overnight and for at least the next 20 years the bulk of all e-car charging will be done at home overnight. And the progress on providing both hydrogen and a hydrogen infrastructure has been pathetically slow.

So it's a solution for a problem with very limited existence for a long time yet, by which time the problem could have largely gone. My bet is that it will never happen, just like our Mercedes hydrogen buses in London.
.

I think you are missing the point on this one. The current vehicle is a van.but a car is equally doable. The reason to go for hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is arguable,..but this is a fuel cell,..direct conversation to electric power, without combustion so zero emissions , no NOx . You may be correct that lithium will not be a shortage, but the kerb charging points is a problem in urban areas. I say its a game changer, but of course nobody might want to play that game.

 

[Danidl]

For widespread mass usage I agree but to think everyone in every area and circumstance can operate solely on electricity is mistaken.
There will always be need for Independant (off grid literally) technology,either in form of fast response generators or hybrid type vehicles. Hydrogen could fill that roll much cleaner than current ICE,even taking into account its production.
There is lots of work going into hydrogen powered lorries.... Can't remember which firm but one if larger ones is planning on replacing diesel engines with hydrogen.
Can't imagine Australian road train lorries electrifying any time soon??? (or the Alaskan Ice Truckers???)
Australian Road train truck... 19 litres,
Diesel..
View attachment 42651

Can't see that been replaced by anything in next 20 or 30 years??? Any ideas? Perhaps hydrogen fuel cells or Hyrdogen ICE? But suspect alternative will take some finding. And will it be worthwhile environmentally, still profitable and desirable...
Our old ICE technology takes some beating.

A New 10.6L Two-Stroke Diesel Engine Has 3 Cylinders And 6 Pistons

Walmart is testing an opposed-piston diesel engine with the intention of replacing its more conventional 13 and 15-litre four-stroke units

www.carthrottle.com

Or a couple of these??

The liquid metal battery has the potential to electrify railways in exactly the same way as a diesel electric locomotive., So yes I could see those hauling stuff across Alaska or Siberian railways.
There is no advantage in going Hydrogen ICE, the advantage is going Hydrogen EV . There is the immediate thermodynamic loss of 60% in using a heat engine to generate power as compared to a fuel cell.
The only place where hydrogen ICE has a unique advantage is aviation

 

[Zlatan]

Unusual Property in Hydrogen Fuel Device Discovered – Could Be Ultimate Guide to Self-Improvement

Three years ago, scientists at the University of Michigan discovered an artificial photosynthesis device made of silicon and gallium nitride (Si/GaN) that harnesses sunlight into carbon-free hydrogen for fuel cells with twice the efficiency and stability of some previous technologies. Now, scient

scitechdaily.com

Our ability to produce hydrogen is improving..

 

[Zlatan]

The only place where hydrogen ICE has a unique advantage is aviation

In theory, agreed.
In reality we already have an industry capable of producing literally millions of ICE engines a year and that has a momentum all of its own.
We will be seeing new fossil fuel ICE for a while yet never mind Hydrogen fueled. The opposed piston diesel 2 stroke linked to earlier is destined for production for vans, lorries and trucks. (and Tanks).
Getting people and industry to swap to new technology isn't just about outright theory of design principles and going down a route of a single technology having a monopoly is dangerous.
The demise of fossil fueled ICE was talked about when I was a lad, in reality its with us a long time yet and swapping to hydrogen, even with its Nox problems will prolong that well beyond our life times and probably beyond my grandkids.
Yes Hydrogen Fuel cell emotors are probably looking best solution at the moment. Look back in history of transport and its not always the "best solution" we chose.

 

[oyster]

In theory, agreed.
In reality we already have an industry capable of producing literally millions of ICE engines a year and that has a momentum all of its own.
We will be seeing new fossil fuel ICE for a while yet never mind Hydrogen fueled. The opposed piston diesel 2 stroke linked to earlier is destined for production for vans, lorries and trucks. (and Tanks).
Getting people and industry to swap to new technology isn't just about outright theory of design principles and going down a route of a single technology having a monopoly is dangerous.
The demise of fossil fueled ICE was talked about when I was a lad, in reality its with us a long time yet and swapping to hydrogen, even with its Nox problems will prolong that well beyond our life times and probably beyond my grandkids.
Yes Hydrogen Fuel cell emotors are probably looking best solution at the moment. Look back in history of transport and its not always the "best solution" we chose.

Agriculture uses huge amounts of diesel and, sadly, all too many of their vehicles tend to emit plumes of smoke.

That is a major challenge.

 

[oyster]

Agriculture uses huge amounts of diesel and, sadly, all too many of their vehicles tend to emit plumes of smoke.

That is a major challenge.

I see that there is a dual-fuel approach:

https://h2dualpower.com/en#dual fuel

Which might be significantly better than diesel only.

 

[Zlatan]

Agriculture uses huge amounts of diesel and, sadly, all too many of their vehicles tend to emit plumes of smoke.

That is a major challenge.

Think we will end up with a very split, diverse situation. Travelled throughout India a few years ago... Sort of middle ages with satellite dishes.. Wonder when such as there will go Carbon neutral... They will buy all our thrown out ICE at silly prices, run them into ground on cheap fuel...??? Bit like Covid in that problem isn't solved til it's solved for us all. Yes, UK might well be a shining example of low emissions... On world stage will it make a difference..???

Can you ever imagine any struggling subsistence farmers going to the hydrogen fuel celled tractor to plough fields.. Another 50 years perhaps or more likely 100? Suspect in mean time there will still be thousands of old massey Fergusons and such sat in barns for many many years past 2030.

By the way... Why on earth should I pay a license fee to listen, well be preached to, by some idiot telling us where we are going wrong and using thickest animal on planet to demonstrate fact. Swans moving their eggs FFS. BBC has completely lost plot. Thought for the day on R2... Mine is feck off. If I wanted a sermon I, d go to church or phone OG.

 

[oyster]

Think we will end up with a very split, diverse situation. Travelled throughout India a few years ago... Sort of middle ages with satellite dishes.. Wonder when such as there will go Carbon neutral... They will buy all our thown out ICE at silly prices, run them into ground on cheap fuel...??? Bit like Covid in that problem isn't solved til it's solved for us all. Yes, UK might well be a shining example of low emissions... On world stage will it make a difference..???

Even if the big picture is as you imply, I think I'd very much like to see all those who live in the UK able to breathe clean air.

 

[flecc]

I think you are missing the point on this one. The current vehicle is a van.but a car is equally doable. The reason to go for hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is arguable,..but this is a fuel cell,..direct conversation to electric power, without combustion so zero emissions , no NOx . You may be correct that lithium will not be a shortage, but the kerb charging points is a problem in urban areas. I say its a game changer, but of course nobody might want to play that game.

No, I missed nothing, perhaps you missed that I included cars in my answer, including the fact that it will be as much as 20 years before range becomes a problem and may never do. I can explain that if you wish. And of course I'm only speaking of fuel cells, we have no hydrogen ICE london buses but have dabbled in fuel cell hydrogen buses repeatedly since the 1990s, but as yet they remain far more problematic than you seem to accept, including limited range. Suffice to say that after four generations of them we have just 8 of them out of our over 9000 buses.

Kerb charging points are only a problem to those who don t follow this incredibly fast changing subject, so I'll just mention 350 kW charging points and four miles per kW/h for you to work out why that is, adding that national average car mileage in Britain is 7300 miles.
.

 

[oyster]

Kerb charging points are only a problem to those who don t follow this incredibly fast changing subject, so I'll just mention 350 kW charging points and four miles per kW/h for you to work out why that is, adding that national average car mileage in Britain is 7300 miles.

Perhaps we need to re-cast charging rates from kilowatts to mph? If we charge at 60 mph, then in an hour we can drive a notional 60 miles. Obviously, that would have to be the standardised rate for your vehicle and it would be vehicle dependent. But a helpful way of considering how long you need to charge for.

 

[flecc]

Perhaps we need to re-cast charging rates from kilowatts to mph? If we charge at 60 mph, then in an hour we can drive a notional 60 miles. Obviously, that would have to be the standardised rate for your vehicle and it would be vehicle dependent. But a helpful way of considering how long you need to charge for.

I don't think so, making it more complicated with unreal information that cannot be judged for accuracy in advance.

Those of us with e-cars find them much easier than ICE in this respect. We have all the necessary information on our dashboard, number of miles covered since charge, number of miles left in the battery, even percentage of charge left in the battery and the current consumption rate in miles per kW/h and we know our battery size in kW/h of course. It's mollycoddling compared to ICE cars with only a fuel gauge.

As I showed after only two weeks with my car in 2018, I was able to judge it down to almost empty at 162 miles covered with no range fear.
.

 

[flecc]

In theory, agreed.
In reality we already have an industry capable of producing literally millions of ICE engines a year and that has a momentum all of its own.
We will be seeing new fossil fuel ICE for a while yet never mind Hydrogen fueled. The opposed piston diesel 2 stroke linked to earlier is destined for production for vans, lorries and trucks. (and Tanks).
Getting people and industry to swap to new technology isn't just about outright theory of design principles and going down a route of a single technology having a monopoly is dangerous.
The demise of fossil fueled ICE was talked about when I was a lad, in reality its with us a long time yet and swapping to hydrogen, even with its Nox problems will prolong that well beyond our life times and probably beyond my grandkids.
Yes Hydrogen Fuel cell emotors are probably looking best solution at the moment. Look back in history of transport and its not always the "best solution" we chose.

Your post is all about the fuels etc, and that's always been the case generally elsewhere.

But it's different game now due to the climate change threat, it's only emissions that count, with zero being the only acceptable number.

So it won't just be about fuels or even vehicle types, there will be other factors involved such as whether we will even be doing the same things, travelling the same ways and what we will be allowed to do. What is to come shortly can only be seen with current blinkers removed, but few seem to have the vision to see the entire picture simultaneously and realise that.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Your post is all about the fuels etc, and that's always been the case generally elsewhere.

But it's different game now due to the climate change threat, it's only emissions that count, with zero being the only acceptable number.

So it won't just be about fuels or even vehicle types, there will be other factors involved such as whether we will even be doing the same things, travelling the same ways and what we will be allowed to do. What is to come shortly can only be seen with current blinkers removed, but few seem to have the vision to see the entire picture simultaneously and realise that.
.

I, ve said before flecc you are an idealist.
India, Vietnam, China, Brazil, and a good few others have millions of people arising from poverty, all looking for cheap transport. And I mean cheap. Thousands upon thousands of families currently taking families of 4 away on Honda 90s (seriously) will be upgrading to our off casts for years and years.
Ho Chi Min City has to be seen to be believed. Roads absolutely packed with everything vehicle way way over loaded. Folk delivering building products on motor bikes, flower sellers on C90s., families on scooters. You really think those masses of folk will miss out on ICE engined cars because you and various governments think they should. I don't think so somehow Yep, agreed, countries such as us are going to see incredible change towards electric /hybrid /hydrogen or whatever. Much of rest of world simply can't afford anything like it. Number of ICE engined overall I suspect will carry on increasing for years. Vietnam hasn't invested billions in Road network so idealists like us. can buy electric vehicles. I think its you with blinkers on. You are not seeing the whole picture, just our little microcosm. All those lads driving such as this are going to do what exactly..

I, ll tell you what they will be doing, buying our old jags, Mondeos and Mercedes as their dad's bought our old buses.
Just to put it in perspective numbers wise...
Its estimated there are 30 million cars on road in India. Their population is around 1.3 billion. Last year India produced 21 million vehicles. Over next few years more and more folk throughout Asia, India, China etc will be aspiring for vehicles... They won't care whether diesel, petrol or whatever.. You really think we can tell all those people not to behave as we have for last 50 years?? I don't think so.

 

[flecc]

I, ve said before flecc you are an idealist.

No, I'm living in Britain, not even the UK, so that's our subject and I post about that. What the rest of the world does has little effect at all on our motoring here or even in Europe. It's only of interest, not having any practical influence on our driving.

So I'm not contradicting you at all and largely agree since we've been here many times before. For example 50 years ago selling our pre WW2 London RT buses to Hong Kong so they could pollute themselves for a few more decades. But they aren't in the traffic queue ahead of me this side of the planet.

However, I do think you are overdoing this aspect, just look at how rapidly China is greening, their cities often aren't even allowed to buy ICE buses, it's electric or nothing, and they have more e-cars than anywhere else in the world. Their pollution crisis left them no other option. The countries that are furthest behind in Greening are the ones with the fewest cars, and if they aren't careful will stay that way. We may have sold those old buses long ago, but with hard won greening we may not be be so keen on sending our gas guzzlers elsewhere to undo all th good we've achieved. We already have large scale scrapping programs and conversions of existing ICE vehicles to electric and I see those growing.
.

 

[Zlatan]

No, I'm living in Britain, not even the UK, so that's our subject and I post about that. What the rest of the world does has little effect at all on our motoring here or even in Europe. It's only of interest, not having any practical influence on our driving.

So I'm not contradicting you at all and largely agree since we've been here many times before. For example 50 years ago selling our pre WW2 London RT buses to Hong Kong so they could pollute themselves for a few more decades. But they aren't in the traffic queue ahead of me this side of the planet.

However, I do think you are overdoing this aspect, just look at how rapidly China is greening, their cities often aren't even allowed to buy ICE buses, it's electric or nothing, and they have more e-cars than anywhere else in the world. Their pollution crisis left them no other option. The countries that are furthest behind in Greening are the ones with the fewest cars, and if they aren't careful will stay that way. We may have sold those old buses long ago, but with hard won greening we may not be be so keen on sending our gas guzzlers elsewhere to undo all th good we've achieved. We already have large scale scrapping programs and conversions of existing ICE vehicles to electric and I see those growing.
.

I agree over China, suspect their standard of living is equal to ours already, they are set to become richest nation on planet.(and probably take it over?)
But India/Pakistan, Brazil, Vietnam constitute a massive %age of world population.
I, m not arguing against countries that can afford to go green should do so. They have a duty to do so but much of driving force behind it all is the world's position. Rising sea levels, Ozone levels (OK now dropping), Ice flows disappearing etc etc need a world wide approach. Much of world has other things on its mind. Deforestation is going on at same rate, and from a World's point of view are we really going to be much better off when we all know full well much of what will become outdated technology will simply be used by poorer nations.??
What will happen to our 5 year old diesel cars in 2035? Half used? Scrapped or sold abroad?? Neither great for environment.