Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

I agree over China, suspect their standard of living is equal to ours already, they are set to become richest nation on planet.(and probably take it over?) Much of world has other things on its mind.

They all have climate change on their mind, if only because it is affecting them as well so greatly now. Hunger is a great motivator and all these countries will change once they drop far enough back on the greening agenda and also suffer more. Their people won't refuse to since they are far more obedient than us, just look at what has happened elsewhere in a number of places worldwide:

Fixed total number of cars allowed, you wait for someone to die to get a slot, but then that slot can cost you a fee that's larger than the price of your new car cost.

Every other day usage only with number plate background coloured.

Road space restriction at certain times. Julius Caesar was first with this in 45 BC when he acted on cart congestion in Rome by a ban through most daylight hours and it's still happening in many places, often by high charges to enter as in London.

Road pricing for the best routes or even the only route.

All happening right now in many places, often over decades.

from a World's point of view are we really going to be much better off when we all know full well much of what will become outdated technology will simply be used by poorer nations.??

As I said, that wont happen so much as the implications sink in. The climate problem has been caused by the countries who are now the ones acting, like us in Europe. Those poor nations are not who caused the problem and won't be in future.

What will happen to our 5 year old diesel cars in 2035? Half used? Scrapped or sold abroad?? Neither great for environment.

None of those. The many who for various reasons don't want to give up on ICE will keep them on the road since they can't buy them new and there will be businesses supporting that. The average life of a car is reckoned to be 22 years here, so with no new available that could get extended to 30 years. So we could be looking at an end usage date between 2050 and 2060 rather than 2035. Plenty of time for other countries to get their act together, even the poorer ones.
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[Danidl]

Agreed, but ICE will lose some of its advantage as it has to clean up its act as it runs in those fringe applications where battery electric won't do. A lot of its output will be absorbed by the technology to make them zero emission.

And structural change shouldn't be discounted. We once used rail much more for goods and passengers and will return to that over time. Many other countries already are doing and even the trans Siberian railway has been fully electrified from Europe to the Far East. I'm sure the madness of thousands of long distance trucks travelling from the Near East into and across Europe or even the length of our own country will disappear once we realise how stupid that is.

As for hydrogen, the biggest fallacy about it is to think of it as a fuel source. It needs to be created first. The principal drawback is the that it takes thrice the energy to produce hydrogen by electrolysis, the cleanest method, than the hydrogen will embody.

A case of sustainable hydrogen generation is found on the windy Orkney Islands, which have many wind turbines. Despite the popularity of electric vehicles on the island, there is nearly always excess electricity. They can’t send much of it to the mainland because of inadequate interconnector capacity. So they generate hydrogen which is used to power the ferry to the mainland. Unfortunately, to date excess wind power only produces a limited amount of hydrogen worldwide.

1. The main aspect holding back widespread hydrogen fuel cell adoption is the cost of generating hydrogen and developing the hydrogen distribution network.
2. A report by the German Association for Electrical, Electronic & Information Technologies (VDE) electrical standards and research group was undertaken to compare the cost-effectiveness of battery electric multiple units (BEMU) and hydrogen electric multiple units (HEMU). The study determined that BEMUs are currently 35% cheaper to acquire and operate than hydrogen fuel cell equivalent trains (hydrail).

The study assumed that only ‘green hydrogen’ produced from renewable electricity sources will be used. However, in practice much cheaper ‘grey hydrogen’ by-product of chemical and oil industry processes may well be used.
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I, ve said before flecc you are an idealist.
India, Vietnam, China, Brazil, and a good few others have millions of people arising from poverty, all looking for cheap transport. And I mean cheap. Thousands upon thousands of families currently taking families of 4 away on Honda 90s (seriously) will be upgrading to our off casts for years and years.
Ho Chi Min City has to be seen to be believed. Roads absolutely packed with everything vehicle way way over loaded. Folk delivering building products on motor bikes, flower sellers on C90s., families on scooters. You really think those masses of folk will miss out on ICE engined cars because you and various governments think they should. I don't think so somehow Yep, agreed, countries such as us are going to see incredible change towards electric /hybrid /hydrogen or whatever. Much of rest of world simply can't afford anything like it. Number of ICE engined overall I suspect will carry on increasing for years. Vietnam hasn't invested billions in Road network so idealists like us. can buy electric vehicles. I think its you with blinkers on. You are not seeing the whole picture, just our little microcosm. All those lads driving such as this are going to do what exactly..
View attachment 42658
I, ll tell you what they will be doing, buying our old jags, Mondeos and Mercedes as their dad's bought our old buses.
Just to put it in perspective numbers wise...
Its estimated there are 30 million cars on road in India. Their population is around 1.3 billion. Last year India produced 21 million vehicles. Over next few years more and more folk throughout Asia, India, China etc will be aspiring for vehicles... They won't care whether diesel, petrol or whatever.. You really think we can tell all those people not to behave as we have for last 50 years?? I don't think so.

Yes I have been in Saigon and the range of machines is bewildering.as is the real poverty. And the air quality is appalling from the two stroke motors. However there are intermediate solutions. One alternative which seemed ideal for these, and cheaper to implement, was air pressure motors. A tank of air preferably at cryogenic temperature allowed to expand and drive a single or double piston. . What they don't lack is sufficient heat to expand the gas... lithium as a material is very expensive.

 

[Zlatan]

Yes I have been in Saigon and the range of machines is bewildering.as is the real poverty. And the air quality is appalling from the two stroke motors. However there are intermediate solutions. One alternative which seemed ideal for these, and cheaper to implement, was air pressure motors. A tank of air preferably at cryogenic temperature allowed to expand and drive a single or double piston. . What they don't lack is sufficient heat to expand the gas... lithium as a material is very expensive.

Compressed Air as an energy storage system has a unit storage of 11...(ie volume required to store 1 litre of diesel would require a tank of 11 litre volume for same energy storage, yes its possible but not very high power density with everything included. Plus the air must still be compressed, ie) its not a prime mover. So much as its feasible... Not particularly attractive. Imagine that c90 carrying 2 adults and 2 kids to coast in Vietnam...??? Think he, d get an old fiesta or stick with his c90...
This revolution we are planning is a first. The whole world bought cars, ICE engines, sports cars, big lazy 7 litre V8s and 1000cc V twin motorbikes because they wanted them or to make money with (either directly or using them to commute). Think we are putting cart before horse. Telling people what they can and can't have is always difficult and full of surprises.
Like flecc says, we are responsible for most pollution (we as Western Civilisation) what we are now saying is... You poor countries don't pollute as we did, go electric... Look at Brazil and see how they respond to requests about not destroying rain forests...
Third world is moving on, we are kidding ourselves thinking our motives and desires over environment will translate throughout the world. Obviously there will be areas of improvement everywhere, Indians in big Cities are moving away from their Morris Oxfords.. To think India, Brazil etc will en masse follow our lead soon is wishful thinking. Go look on beaches around India where ships are run aground to be scrapped, kids in bare feet attacking them with grinders, acetylene torches . Great swathes of our planet are still quite literally a different world. Thinking otherwise is not being realistic.
You actually think Indians on Goa could be made to give up their 2 stroke powered Rick shaws in favour of compressed Air powered ones...??? Have a rethink on that one Danidl. It ain't going to happen

 

[flecc]

Compressed Air as an energy storage system has a unit storage of 11...(ie volume required to store 1 litre of diesel would require a tank of 11 litre volume for same energy storage, yes its possible but not very high power density with everything included. Plus the air must still be compressed, ie) its not a prime mover.

The French are already there, Information Link

This revolution we are planning is a first. The whole world bought cars, ICE engines, sports cars, big lazy 7 litre V8s and 1000cc V twin motorbikes because they wanted them or to make money with (either directly or using them to commute).

Hardly the first revolution! We began by walking, then rode animals and aspired to own one. Then we hopped onto whatever the animal was pulling and aspired to own them. We followed with railways, and although we couldn't own them we could aspire to travel First Class.

Telling people what they can and can't have is always difficult and full of surprises.

We don't. We persuade them that it's what they want and they fall for it every time.

we are responsible for most pollution (we as Western Civilisation) what we are now saying is... You poor countries don't pollute as we did, go electric... Look at Brazil and see how they respond to requests about not destroying rain forests...
Third world is moving on, we are kidding ourselves thinking our motives and desires over environment will translate throughout the world.

We don't tell them, see above. And they'll do it to themselves, just as they wanted our ICE cars, they'll be wanting our e-cars when they see all of us driving them. China has already got there and gone ahead of us.

To think India, Brazil etc will en masse follow our lead soon is wishful thinking.

Really!! Please remember that India beat us to it with e-cars, their G-Whiz was years before our Nissan Leaf with only the battery holding it back. Brazil was powering ICE with bio fuel (alcohol) decades ago. And with roads rationing, South and Central America is far ahead of the rest of the world with numerous third world countries practising it:

Permanent alternate day driving schemes in Bogota, Mexico City, San Jose, Santiago, São Paulo and many other places worldwide.

Seems the third world could teach us a thing or two on this subject!!!
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[Danidl]

Compressed Air as an energy storage system has a unit storage of 11...(ie volume required to store 1 litre of diesel would require a tank of 11 litre volume for same energy storage, yes its possible but not very high power density with everything included. Plus the air must still be compressed, ie) its not a prime mover. So much as its feasible... Not particularly attractive. Imagine that c90 carrying 2 adults and 2 kids to coast in Vietnam...??? Think he, d get an old fiesta or stick with his c90...
This revolution we are planning is a first. The whole world bought cars, ICE engines, sports cars, big lazy 7 litre V8s and 1000cc V twin motorbikes because they wanted them or to make money with (either directly or using them to commute). Think we are putting cart before horse. Telling people what they can and can't have is always difficult and full of surprises.
Like flecc says, we are responsible for most pollution (we as Western Civilisation) what we are now saying is... You poor countries don't pollute as we did, go electric... Look at Brazil and see how they respond to requests about not destroying rain forests...
Third world is moving on, we are kidding ourselves thinking our motives and desires over environment will translate throughout the world. Obviously there will be areas of improvement everywhere, Indians in big Cities are moving away from their Morris Oxfords.. To think India, Brazil etc will en masse follow our lead soon is wishful thinking. Go look on beaches around India where ships are run aground to be scrapped, kids in bare feet attacking them with grinders, acetylene torches . Great swathes of our planet are still quite literally a different world. Thinking otherwise is not being realistic.
You actually think Indians on Goa could be made to give up their 2 stroke powered Rick shaws in favour of compressed Air powered ones...??? Have a rethink on that one Danidl. It ain't going to happen

The equation changes totally with Cryogenics. .. a litre of liquid is 1000 litres of gas. . There is a point in which we agree.. that the West does not get to dictate to the Far East or India the path they must take .

 

[flecc]

There is a point in which we agree.. that the West does not get to dictate to the Far East or India the path they must take .

True, we set the example and they follow voluntarily.

Capitalist economy, Tick

Lifestyle when affordable, Tick

Climate change agenda, Tick

E-vehicles, Tick
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[Zlatan]

The equation changes totally with Cryogenics. .. a litre of liquid is 1000 litres of gas. . There is a point in which we agree.. that the West does not get to dictate to the Far East or India the path they must take .

Sounds ideal technology to replace the millions of Honda C90s keeping India moving at moment.
There are 37 million motorcycles in India.

 

[Zlatan]

404 - Page not found - Fuelcellsworks

fuelcellsworks.com

Perhaps this is the future.

 

[oyster]

404 - Page not found - Fuelcellsworks

fuelcellsworks.com

Perhaps this is the future.

End to end efficiency appears to be a major issue. Mind, if we end up with massive over-installation of solar generation, and wind, perhaps absolute efficiency wouldn't matter so much. But even that would require hydrolysis plants able to mop up all the excess. And storage facilities.

 

[Woosh]

But even that would require hydrolysis plants able to mop up all the excess. And storage facilities.

and transport.

 

[oyster]

and transport.

I left that out because I know little about hydrolysis and the processes of getting the hydrogen into storage containers. If plants to do that were modest scale, then much of the distribution could possibly be of electricity from generation point to hydrolysis plant.

 

[Woosh]

at present, 95% of hydrogen is still produced by cracking methane with steam in a process called steam reforming.

CH4 + H2O ⇌ CO + 3 H2

Steam reforming - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

To top up my student's grant, I used to work in the summer at a factory making fertilisers. A similar process is used to make ammonia.

 

[Danidl]

at present, 95% of hydrogen is still produced by cracking methane with steam in a process called steam reforming.

CH4 + H2O ⇌ CO + 3 H2

Steam reforming - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

To top up my student's grant, I used to work in the summer at a factory making fertilisers. A similar process is used to make ammonia.

Once one has methane that can also be used as a fuel cell material. I see methane as a lower pressure method of carrying hydrogen. The carbon holds the energy rich hydrogen atoms

 

[Woosh]

On top of the issue that hydrogen will still be fossil based for a long time, the molecule is so small that it is much more dangerous to store and handle than methane or ammonia for example.

 

[Danidl]

End to end efficiency appears to be a major issue. Mind, if we end up with massive over-installation of solar generation, and wind, perhaps absolute efficiency wouldn't matter so much. But even that would require hydrolysis plants able to mop up all the excess. And storage facilities.

The liquid metal battery cures the energy storage part of the electrical conundrum at a utility scale level. The materials are cheap, the chemistry is well understood,and the efficiency is superb. Not suitable for mobile use , but at static sites , excellent.

 

[Woosh]

I think we look at the problem the wrong way. There is a huge waste of energy based on the fact that we have too many cars. If you look at the CO2 produced in making a car, that's about 17 tonnes per car.
If public transport is free, we may need a million fewer cars a year, saving 17 million tonnes of CO2.

 

[flecc]

I think we look at the problem the wrong way. There is a huge waste of energy based on the fact that we have too many cars. If you look at the CO2 produced in making a car, that's about 17 tonnes per car.
If public transport is free, we may need a million fewer cars a year, saving 17 million tonnes of CO2.

Absolutely. We've already shown in London how cheap and for many free public transport with high service frequency leads to a large fall in car ownership, we have the lowest rate in the country. Even for those still owning a car, the frequency of usage and mileage drops dramatically. Again here in London, why commute in the car and pay £11.50 a day congestion charge when the bus and/or tram costs £1.55? And the train from the outlying suburbs only costs half the congestion charge.

Most importantly of of all, those up to 16 or 18 in full time education travel free, so given the astronomic cost of car insurance they grow up not even wanting a car.
.

 

[oyster]

at present, 95% of hydrogen is still produced by cracking methane with steam in a process called steam reforming.

CH4 + H2O ⇌ CO + 3 H2

Steam reforming - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

To top up my student's grant, I used to work in the summer at a factory making fertilisers. A similar process is used to make ammonia.

I remember producer gas! (No - not the same, but it reminded me.)

 

[flecc]

I remember producer gas! (No - not the same, but it reminded me.)

Adler Diplomat car with rear gas generator:

 

[jonathan.agnew]

I think we look at the problem the wrong way. There is a huge waste of energy based on the fact that we have too many cars. If you look at the CO2 produced in making a car, that's about 17 tonnes per car.
If public transport is free, we may need a million fewer cars a year, saving 17 million tonnes of CO2.

My brain agrees with you. My butt, having spent some time on the cold often old rolling stock of the underground at inhospitable hours in UK's more often than not grim weather greatly prefer the quiet air conditioned interior of an ev parked a few meters from the front door. So far my butt has made the executive decision and I suspect it may be that way with most punters.