Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

All countries could and should have predicted:
If a vaccine does arrive, it will need to be injected by suitably qualified people.
We will need at least one injection per person.
That means a lot of injection people.

Followed by:
Make a list of suitable people. E.g. open registration for volunteers, returnees, and others not in the default list of NHS staff.
Define the qualifications required. (Assume standard injecting techniques, initially. Additional skills can be added, if needed.)
Check claimed qualifications.
Address any known training requirements.
Maintain contact with all on the list. Regular emails, or whatever.

If some of the identified issues such as fire training and health and safety appear excessive, review the need for them. If not, get the training in as soon as possible.

If we (all countries) had done the above we would have started in a better place as the vaccine started to arrive. Even if evenything needs reworking, you are still starting from something rather than nothing.

We have 80,000 folk qualified to administer vaccine. We don't need more. Let them get on with it and credit those who have got us to this point. Yep, yet again, mistakes are made. That's life. Stop looking for fault. Appreciate what is being done on our behalf and praise the achievements.
OG doesn't come on and say
"great, I, ve had my first shot"
He comes on like a spoilt child
"where, s my second?"
Glass half empty.

 

[Zlatan]

Some (fingers crossed) potential good news:

Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine protects against new variants – study

There’s some very encouraging news from new research suggesting that the Covid-19 vaccine from Pfizer/BioNTech protects against two new variants that are rapidly spreading across the UK.
The pharmaceutical giant and researchers from the University of Texas Medical Branch carried out lab tests on the variants, one of which was found in the UK while the other originated in South Africa.
The variants contain mutations including N501Y, an alteration in the spike protein of the virus, which is a target for vaccines.
In the new study, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, blood samples were taken from 20 people who received the Pfizer vaccine.
Laboratory studies found the samples had neutralising levels of antibodies which appeared to work against the variants.
The third lockdown in England was in response to the rapid spread of the variant found in the south-east, which has now spread to other parts of the UK.
Pfizer has tested 16 different mutations and none of them have had any significant impact on how the vaccine works. However, further studies are planned on other mutations.

Good news.

 

[oyster]

We don't need more.

Remarkable confidence.

If they start to go down with Covid-19 themselves, we might find ourselves short.

Their locations are also important. There are difficulties in qualified people getting from, say, Aberdeen to Swansea, or vice versa.

But my point was that the issues about having to change the requirements for these people could and should have been identified and addressed much earlier.

I ask you now, are there enough sharps boxes? Are the disposal systems in place? A couple of very simple requirements which could well have been missed.

 

[Zlatan]

Remarkable confidence.

If they start to go down with Covid-19 themselves, we might find ourselves short.

Their locations are also important. There are difficulties in qualified people getting from, say, Aberdeen to Swansea, or vice versa.

But my point was that the issues about having to change the requirements for these people could and should have been identified and addressed much earlier.

I ask you now, are there enough sharps boxes? Are the disposal systems in place? A couple of very simple requirements which could well have been missed.

Give them a ring, I, m sure they would appreciate the advice.
On the vaccine numbers front.
There are roughly 8 billion people on earth. At the moment getting a shot against covid in the next couple of months is like standing at a single turnstile with another 100,000 people lined up... But you are 5th in queu. (if 80 plus) If over 60 about 8th.
Suspect my daughter, vaccinated because of work 3 weeks ago, was 2nd through.
And you lot are grumbling. What about poor folk half a mile down road.

 

[oyster]

Give them a ring, I, m sure they would appreciate the advice.
On the vaccine numbers front.
There are roughly 8 billion people on earth. At the moment getting a shot against covid in the next couple of months is like standing at a single turnstile with another 100,000 people lined up... But you are 5th in queu. (if 80 plus) If over 60 about 8th.
Suspect my daughter, vaccinated because of work 3 weeks ago, was 2nd through.
And you lot are grumbling. What about poor folk half a mile down road.

That is exactly what is needed - a mechanism which allows MoPs like us to read and see what has been thought through and planned. With feedback that lets us point out potential issues.

Obviously, if a million are contributing, there has to be a way of editing and handling vast numbers of comments. Merging. Whittling them down. Assessing. Where valid and sensible, ensure they are put through to those who are actually making decisions.

I see one company both claims advantages and appears to have understood the opportunities (for them) - including higher protection for those giving the injections.

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/business/needledock-offers-100-free-trial-samples-of-its-safer-sharps-bin-to-hospitals-medical-centres-and-labs-9130096/

 

[Jesus H Christ]

UK's decision to delay second Covid vaccine shot reluctantly endorsed by advisors

Germany's health ministry on Monday sought the advice of an independent vaccination commission on whether to follow in the U.K.'s footsteps.

www.cnbc.com

I suspect these people had read the box as well.
Those in power have awful decisions to make. It's a risk either way. That's reality. Moaning at Boris and making these arguments political is ridiculous. We are all fighting the virus, we shouldn't be fighting each other.
I, m fairly sure JVT knows a hundred times more about our predicament than this entire forum combined. He has endorsed decision to extend time. But for some odd reason some folk on here know more than he does???

JVT and his colleagues at Downing Street briefings told us that face masks were ineffective. I understand why he said it, to prevent a rush on scarce PPE, but he did say it and it wasn’t true.

So, when he tells me that we don’t need to follow the instructions on the vaccine box .....

 

[Nev]

Although Israel is a fairly small country and does not have a big population I think they deserve a great deal of credit over how quickly they have vaccinated a lot of their vulnerable people. I hope we and other countries are having a good look at just how they have managed to do this. There must be some lessons we can learn from them.

In all fairness we are doing much better when it comes to vaccination than most Countries in the EU and I do give the Government some credit for that. I just hope that we don't rest on our laurels and take our foot off the pedal and just keep boasting that we have vaccinated more than the rest of the EU put together.

I think it is good that Boris has set a target and I think he is not stupid enough to realize that if we miss that target by a long way then that is probably going to finish him off and probably Rishi Sunak will take over from him. He will therefore pull out all the stops like for instance involving the Army in order to achieve the target set.

 

[Zlatan]

That is exactly what is needed - a mechanism which allows MoPs like us to read and see what has been thought through and planned. With feedback that lets us point out potential issues.

Obviously, if a million are contributing, there has to be a way of editing and handling vast numbers of comments. Merging. Whittling them down. Assessing. Where valid and sensible, ensure they are put through to those who are actually making decisions.

I see one company both claims advantages and appears to have understood the opportunities (for them) - including higher protection for those giving the injections.

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/business/needledock-offers-100-free-trial-samples-of-its-safer-sharps-bin-to-hospitals-medical-centres-and-labs-9130096/

Yes, agreed there should be more transparency and explanation. To be fair the medical staff do try and explain in briefings. Unfortunately I do suspect their messages get lost in our sea of media repitition.
I, ve made a point of watching every briefing. I then listen to media's interpretation and think "hang on a minute, they didn't say that".
I have got to point where I ignore every thing unless heard from horse's mouth. (Witty, Valance, JVT, Powys etc).
Papers are terrible, BBC hardly any better. There is a lack of real, believable, trustworthy information. Or perhaps too much of its opposite.
But then again Trump was elected on this mechanism and no doubt it played a part in both Brexit and last election.
This episode has shown the frailty of the truth and the damage caused when lost.
. My feeling throughout this has been "Look this government isn't perfect, far from it but its all we, ve got. Crews do not mutiny in Storms, they wait for the good life in Tahiti.
Been my experience in hard times at sea, in air and probably everywhere,its not bad decisions which get you. Its indecision. When it's time to tack in heavy seas everybody has to do their job. We, ve had situation where some of crew won't tack and then argue justifying not doing so. In mean time the yacht is stalled, lost steerage and sort of tacking. When we get to harbour let's argue about what captain did or didn't do. Just listen to Captain Blythe for a while yet. We are nowhere near Tahiti.

 

[Zlatan]

JVT and his colleagues at Downing Street briefings told us that face masks were ineffective. I understand why he said it, to prevent a rush on scarce PPE, but he did say it and it wasn’t true.

So, when he tells me that we don’t need to follow the instructions on the vaccine box .....

But it is a changing war.. Yes, perhaps we should have been told to wear masks but would it have actually changed people's behaviour.
Couple of weeks ago, when masks were supposed to be worn, popped into our Wickes. Group of blokes arguing with staff, refusing to put on masks. There was a great big sign on door. Masks must be worn.
I have a Chinese friend, met him in Vietnam. (daughter in Sheffield uni) He just thinks English are stupid.
"Nobody has ever told me to wear a mask, they didn't need to".
My own son in law attended Cheltenham. I told him not to go. He reckoned it was busiest he, d ever seen it. Do folk need telling don't mix in public places during a pandemic. Don't touch that red wire. Don't jump off that bridge. Don't play on railway lines,?? Country has lost personal responsibility.
I don't need govt to say to me. "don't go sailing in those 40 ft waves".???
Wearing a mask was and still is now a personal decision. Our country will not accept laws that inhibit freedom yet we aren't sensible enough to look after ourselves. Perfect storm.

 

[oyster]

We are nowhere near Tahiti.

If the UK Space Based Positioning, Navigation and Timing Programme existed and worked, we might know how far away from Tahiti we are.

(Shouldn't they have named it Positioning, Navigation and Timing System? PaNTS for short.)

I suspect most who do not wear masks are being bolshy rather than having genuine reasons. But very difficult to adequately allow for those who can't while cracking down on those who won't.

Other than the frustration of the whole process, it isn't much of an issue for most of us.

 

[Danidl]

All countries could and should have predicted:
If a vaccine does arrive, it will need to be injected by suitably qualified people.
We will need at least one injection per person.
That means a lot of injection people.

Followed by:
Make a list of suitable people. E.g. open registration for volunteers, returnees, and others not in the default list of NHS staff.
Define the qualifications required. (Assume standard injecting techniques, initially. Additional skills can be added, if needed.)
Check claimed qualifications.
Address any known training requirements.
Maintain contact with all on the list. Regular emails, or whatever.

If some of the identified issues such as fire training and health and safety appear excessive, review the need for them. If not, get the training in as soon as possible.

If we (all countries) had done the above we would have started in a better place as the vaccine started to arrive. Even if evenything needs reworking, you are still starting from something rather than nothing.

I did not intend making any further comments after 31st. Dec , but there are a few points needing clearing up.
1. The designers and testers of the first vaccine Pfizers , conducted their tests and assured its efficacy They did not pick the 21 days by licking a finger in the air. This is why it took nearly a year of testing. That people who were not part of the validation process to second guess them, without strong evidence is beyond stupid.
2. It would be better to have 19% of a population certified cv19 free than 36% very iffy. Nobody knows whether immunity by the virus to this vaccine is possible... From limited information, I think not, but why take any chance!.
3. The difference between ramping up vaccination programs and running an election is that there is no shortage of printing presses. There will be of the reagents and the production process. Getting people to jab intramuscular injections is a simple task and a semitrained person could do 200 a day. I know, I have oftentimes given myself the flu jab. If vaccine bottles are the problem, ..and it is , they can easily be recycled. Primary Schools are an obvious place ,..They are local, they belong to the State and the people can be staggered over hours to reduce overcrowding. An image I saw on TV yesterday showing aged people waiting in a confined waiting room beggers belief. A team of 3, just like the elections can sign people off.... Indeed the same election registers can be used.
4. The Oxford Vaccine is not yet in use. So the self congratulations is a bit premature. It was almost certainly the best bang for buck that the UK Treasury ever funded. Now the UK were quicker off the mark in certification so full marks there
5. The vaccines being administered in the UK are using EU technologies. Design in Germany, glass vials German, the Moderna, designed in USA will be manufactured in Spain .

 

[oyster]

If vaccine bottles are the problem, ..and it is , they can easily be recycled.

If they are using something approximating standard single-use glass vials, recycling is somewhat difficult. Usual technique is to cut the top of the vial off.

I do not know how Oxford-AZ is packaged - only that Pfizer/BioNTech is in nominal five dose bottles. But as it is not being made and packaged here, recycling takes on more difficulty.

Oxford-AZ is now in use.

DWK Life Sciences
appear to be the only UK-based company capable of manufacturing vials. But, even then, I think they have to import the borosilicate from Germany (Schott) or USA (Corning) - but there could be others.

https://www.dwk.com/news-events/press-releases/dwk-life-sciences-announces-primary-packaging-supply-chain-agreement-to-support-vaccine-development

 

[oldgroaner]

Trade flows unhindered into Holyhead

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347293822888402947

 

[Jesus H Christ]

I did not intend making any further comments after 31st. Dec .

You should have followed your instinct.

Actually, I agree with most of your post.

It’s comical that you can’t bring yourself to acknowledge that the U.K. based scientists and English university have developed a vaccine. Because of its ease of handling, it’s likely to become the dominant one too. If you behave yourself and ask nicely, we might let you have some.

 

[oyster]

Trade flows unhindered into Holyhead

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347293822888402947

Just above that:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347259962825826305

No idea how busy Pembroke Dock and Fishguard.

 

[oldgroaner]

View attachment 40115
View attachment 40114


Strange how since we, ve handled pandemic so appallingly we sit with almost exact same infection rate as France, around the average for Europe.
Yet when we examine Vaccination, which is at moment the only objective measure of our organisational efforts we sit top.
As of this morning 1.46 million vaccinations in UK... 567 in France.
And OG, for once I agree, country shouldn't have given first vaccine to such as you, rather given me, wife and daughter our second. Wonder how you, d feel about that.???
That is exactly situation your argument would create.
Changing regime of 21 days for second vaccine to 21 days plus was a correct decision from what I, ve read and heard from JVT/CW /PV. But they should really speak with you. Bog engineer from Hull should be head of PHE making all our decisions.
Think yourself lucky you, ve had vaccination at all. No where else in EU would have given you one. But you still look and find fault. Unbelievable.
(Data in links was as of 3/1/21,latest European figures I could find)

And OG, for once I agree, country shouldn't have given first vaccine to such as you, rather given me, wife and daughter our second. Wonder how you, d feel about that.???

I did ask why we had been vaccinated at the head of the queue
Apparently with my Medical records recording Early stage of Asbestosis and my wife's dementia we were in the right category.

But I put it down to the fact that someone down there hasn't enough places by the fires with the recent heavy tourist traffic, and he put in a request to the other fella upstairs to be patient for as much as 12 weeks

 

[oyster]

London major incident due to Covid-19:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347532612626247680

 

[oldgroaner]

We have 80,000 folk qualified to administer vaccine. We don't need more. Let them get on with it and credit those who have got us to this point. Yep, yet again, mistakes are made. That's life. Stop looking for fault. Appreciate what is being done on our behalf and praise the achievements.
OG doesn't come on and say
"great, I, ve had my first shot"
He comes on like a spoilt child
"where, s my second?"
Glass half empty.

I see you are displaying your usual biased view against logical thought, but then you are hardly in a position to call me a spoilt child after the pathetic gaslighting you do of this dreadful government, and childish attempts to attribute praise to an international company, as is being "British"
And as to being Government funded read this
"23 Nov 2020 — The Oxford University-AstraZeneca vaccine is a collaboration between ... AstraZeneca estimates it will spend $6bn (£4.5bn)
And our Contribution?
18 May 2020 — The Government has announced £65.5 million of new funding for the vaccine

Looks like we gave then the proceeds of a Flag Day so we could claim ownership.
They have conned you once again, haven't they?
Why didn't they finance the whole thing? and just stump up a pittance to score political points among the hard of thinking ?

By the way the Vaccine we received was the PfizerBiontech one, now why, I wonder, if we were the first to approve a "British" vaccine, we received a "Foreign" one first?
Somebody has been telling the public porkies about the availability of supply, haven't they?

 

[Zlatan]

I see you are displaying your usual biased view against logical thought, but then you are hardly in a position to call me a spoilt child after the pathetic gaslighting you do of this dreadful government, and childish attempts to attribute praise to an international company, as is being "British"
And as to being Government funded read this
"23 Nov 2020 — The Oxford University-AstraZeneca vaccine is a collaboration between ... AstraZeneca estimates it will spend $6bn (£4.5bn)
And our Contribution?
18 May 2020 — The Government has announced £65.5 million of new funding for the vaccine

Looks like we gave then the proceeds of a Flag Day so we could claim ownership.
They have conned you once again, haven't they?
Why didn't they finance the whole thing? and just stump up a pittance to score political points among the hard of thinking ?

I, m not the one screaming for second vaccination. I, m patiently waiting and understand the dilemna faced.
Besides one or two is pretty irrelevant. Hancock says we need 6 a month.! (according to media)


Mind Germany got thir first. Gave many pensioners 5 at one go.
I should Google gas lighting OG. Its a stupid comment but normal for you.
And my views and comments have affected no one or anything. I wonder how many buy into your BS, walk out and think "feck the government, they are shambolic and ignore everything"
I think its such as your attitudes that have damaged every message government has given. From masks to isolating.

 

[Nev]

Just above that:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1347259962825826305

No idea how busy Pembroke Dock and Fishguard.

There was a report on the Welsh news on this last night, and they interviewed a manager from Gwynedd shipping. Many of the Lorries that went through Holyhead prior to Brexit are current going to and from Ireland directly from France and more ferries have been put on to accomodate them.

It is usually a much longer and more expensive journey to sail from Ireland to France rather than cross over to Holyhead and drive through the UK but at the moment with the problems with paperwork and the consequent delays this has caused. Many freight companies are choosing to take this route, the chap from Gwynedd shipping thought that as people get used to the paperwork then this might change, and things might go back to how they were before.