Brexit, for once some facts.

[Nev]

And what happens if it is less than 12 weeks?

I think the strategy of extending the time between the first and second injection is causing a lot of confusion, and I think the Government could certainly improve their communications on this matter. Pfizer in particular have not helped matters in this regard.

My understanding is that although the Pfizer vaccine has not been tested with a longer gap between first and second injections, most experts think extending the time gap is still going to give you around 90% protection.

Regarding the Oxford vaccine I think there is some evidence available to suggest extending the gap actually makes the vaccine more effective (once you have the second injection).

From what little I know about all this, I think the Government have probably made the right decision to extend the gap between the injections so that more people can be vaccinated. The math appears to show that getting double the amount of vulnerable people vaccinated with one dose will save more lives than vaccinating half that number with both doses.

From memory (this might have now changes I have not checked) but I don't think anyone given either one or two doses of either the Pfizer or Oxford vaccine have ended up in hospital due to the effects of Covid. So even if the vaccines do not work for everybody and some people do go on to get the virus after being vaccinated. They do not become so unwell that it necessitated hospital treatment.

This is of huge benefit to the Nhs, not having the wards full of people with Covid will enable them to get on with what they are usually doing this time of the year.

If anyone has more up to date information that what I have provided here please post, I am not an expert in any of this I just listen to experts talking on the TV and radio and from what I can gather (there will always be some contradictory voices) the consensus seems to be extending the gap between the injections is the way forward unless and until we have huge quantities of the vaccine available.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

On vaccines, Mr Hancock said: “I anticipate we will probably need to revaccinate because we don’t know the longevity of the protection from these vaccines.

And what happens if it is less than 12 weeks?

Let’s hope that immunity is long lived. The government has conceded absolutely everything to the vaccine and the armed forces ( which they have cut). There is nothing else in the government’s tool box, if the vaccine fails, we are in deep do do.

There is a theory that delaying the second injection by 12 weeks could offer the vaccine an opportunity to develop a resistance to it. That’s equally unthinkable.

 

[oyster]

Nothing about it is funny, but a twist about the Capitol rioters:

Trump rioters could face long jail terms because of his executive order to punish BLM

President Donald Trump in July 2020 had signed an executive order authorising up to 10 years of imprisonment for 'injury of federal property’

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/capitol-rioters-prison-trump-executive-order-b1784256.html

 

[oldgroaner]

Let’s hope that immunity is long lived. The government has conceded absolutely everything to the vaccine and the armed forces ( which they have cut). There is nothing else in the government’s tool box, if the vaccine fails, we are in deep do do.

There is a theory that delaying the second injection by 12 weeks could offer the vaccine an opportunity to develop a resistance to it. That’s equally unthinkable.

I must apologise my friend I'm sure you knew that I would think the unthinkable, we engineers suffer from that trait
Hence the old saying

"There are old engineers
and bold engineers
but not many old and bold ones"

The few there are haunt Forums like this one

 

[oldgroaner]

Nothing about it is funny, but a twist about the Capitol rioters:

Trump rioters could face long jail terms because of his executive order to punish BLM

President Donald Trump in July 2020 had signed an executive order authorising up to 10 years of imprisonment for 'injury of federal property’

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/capitol-rioters-prison-trump-executive-order-b1784256.html

KARMA........Omm............Omm............

 

[oldgroaner]

If only Tom Lehrer was still with us
"We will all go together when we go
after 12 weeks and the jab don't work you know"

 

[oldgroaner]

I wouldn

Nothing about it is funny, but a twist about the Capitol rioters:

Trump rioters could face long jail terms because of his executive order to punish BLM

President Donald Trump in July 2020 had signed an executive order authorising up to 10 years of imprisonment for 'injury of federal property’

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/capitol-rioters-prison-trump-executive-order-b1784256.html

I love watching Wild West action, don't you?
This one
Custard's last stand
is funny too, with Joe Biden playing Sitting Bull

 

[oyster]

If only Tom Lehrer was still with us
"We will all go together when we go
after 12 weeks and the jab don't work you know"

Hasn't died so far as I know!

 

[oyster]

I wouldn

I love watching Wild West action, don't you?
This one
Custard's last stand
is funny too, with Joe Biden playing Sitting Bull

'mid the yuccas and the thistles
I'll watch the guided missiles,
While the old f.b.i. watches me. (yea-hah!)
Yes, I'll soon make my appearance
(soon as I can get my clearance),
'cause the wild west is where I wanna be.

 

[oldgroaner]

Hasn't died so far as I know!

I thought I read somewhere he had, obviously I'm pleased if he hasn't.. I wonder what he makes of present times, and do hope he reacts!

 

[oldgroaner]

'mid the yuccas and the thistles
I'll watch the guided missiles,
While the old f.b.i. watches me. (yea-hah!)
Yes, I'll soon make my appearance
(soon as I can get my clearance),
'cause the wild west is where I wanna be.

Oh yes full marks for that one!

 

[oldgroaner]

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n18
In the BMJ Journal
"In a joint statement Pfizer and BioNTech said, “The safety and efficacy of the vaccine has not been evaluated on different dosing schedules as the majority of trial participants received the second dose within the window specified in the study design . . . There is no data to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained after 21 days.”

 

[oyster]

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n18
In the BMJ Journal
"In a joint statement Pfizer and BioNTech said, “The safety and efficacy of the vaccine has not been evaluated on different dosing schedules as the majority of trial participants received the second dose within the window specified in the study design . . . There is no data to demonstrate that protection after the first dose is sustained after 21 days.”

What was the evidence for brexit?
Or unicorn deliveries?
Or Trump's "My only goal was to ensure the integrity of the vote” ?

Post-evidence world.

 

[Zlatan]

Strange how since we, ve handled pandemic so appallingly we sit with almost exact same infection rate as France, around the average for Europe.
Yet when we examine Vaccination, which is at moment the only objective measure of our organisational efforts we sit top.
As of this morning 1.46 million vaccinations in UK... 567 in France.
And OG, for once I agree, country shouldn't have given first vaccine to such as you, rather given me, wife and daughter our second. Wonder how you, d feel about that.???
That is exactly situation your argument would create.
Changing regime of 21 days for second vaccine to 21 days plus was a correct decision from what I, ve read and heard from JVT/CW /PV. But they should really speak with you. Bog engineer from Hull should be head of PHE making all our decisions.
Think yourself lucky you, ve had vaccination at all. No where else in EU would have given you one. But you still look and find fault. Unbelievable.
(Data in links was as of 3/1/21,latest European figures I could find)

 

[Woosh]

Changing regime of 21 days for second vaccine to 21 days plus was a correct decision

that's the wrong decision.
The correct decision is to make sure that we have enough supplies.
The government has always known months in advance what scheduled deliveries are like with the vaccines and it knows also that the UK will use these vaccines.
If it has enough stock of vaccines, then it can get the jabs done at the pharmacies + doctors surgeries + pop up facilities run by the army and volunteers.

Their excuse now for the lack of stock is because of quality control and safety procedures.

 

[Zlatan]

that's the wrong decision.
The correct decision is to make sure that we have enough supplies.
The government has always known months in advance what scheduled deliveries are like with the vaccines and it knows also that the UK will use these vaccines.
If it has enough stock of vaccines, then it can get the jabs done at the pharmacies + doctors surgeries + pop up facilities run by the army and volunteers.

Their excuse now for the lack of stock is because of quality control and safety procedures.

In an ideal world of course you are right, we don't live in one though. For whatever reason there is not a perfect supply, there was never going to be. MHRA/Govt have to work with reality. A shortage, a bottle neck. I, d read somewhere it was batch checking recently acquired and filled vials. And the 12 week delay probably stops folk going bonkers in mean time, waiting for 2nd you are much more likely to take care. And every country in EU is around a month behind UK, how come you EU advocates arent saying they, ve messed up. Even Micron has said their Vaccine rollout is appalling.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

View attachment 40115
View attachment 40114


Strange how since we, ve handled pandemic so appallingly we sit with almost exact same infection rate as France, around the average for Europe.
Yet when we examine Vaccination, which is at moment the only objective measure of our organisational efforts we sit top.
As of this morning 1.46 million vaccinations in UK... 567 in France.
And OG, for once I agree, country shouldn't have given first vaccine to such as you, rather given me, wife and daughter our second. Wonder how you, d feel about that.???
That is exactly situation your argument would create.
Changing regime of 21 days for second vaccine to 21 days plus was a correct decision from what I, ve read and heard from JVT/CW /PV. But they should really speak with you. Bog engineer from Hull should be head of PHE making all our decisions.
Think yourself lucky you, ve had vaccination at all. No where else in EU would have given you one. But you still look and find fault. Unbelievable.
(Data in links was as of 3/1/21,latest European figures I could find)

I agree to some extent with your reasoning why the 21 days should be extended.

However, it is going against the instructions on the box. It’s an untested and unproven strategy. It carries risk that it could assist the virus in developing resistance to a vaccine.

Also, don’t forget that this government has bet the house on the vaccine. They have absolutely nothing else. They put faith in it arriving, they pre-ordered tens of millions of doses, but did very little in the way of organising delivery. That is all being cobbled together in a rush over the coming days.

Think of a general election, with the correct organisation it’s possible to process 30 million votes over a 72 hour period. Vaccination needs the same level of logistical planning, creativity and organisation. All three are absent in this government.

I’d like to see the vaccine delivered in accordance with the manufacturers guidelines, trial results and national approvals. I’m happy to wait for mine so that can happen.

 

[oyster]

In an ideal world of course you are right, we don't live in one though. For whatever reason there is not a perfect supply, there was never going to be. MHRA/Govt have to work with reality. A shortage, a bottle neck. I, d read somewhere it was batch checking recently acquired and filled vials. And the 12 week delay probably stops folk going bonkers in mean time, waiting for 2nd you are much more likely to take care. And every country in EU is around a month behind UK, how come you EU advocates arent saying they, ve messed up. Even Micron has said their Vaccine rollout is appalling.

All countries could and should have predicted:
If a vaccine does arrive, it will need to be injected by suitably qualified people.
We will need at least one injection per person.
That means a lot of injection people.

Followed by:
Make a list of suitable people. E.g. open registration for volunteers, returnees, and others not in the default list of NHS staff.
Define the qualifications required. (Assume standard injecting techniques, initially. Additional skills can be added, if needed.)
Check claimed qualifications.
Address any known training requirements.
Maintain contact with all on the list. Regular emails, or whatever.

If some of the identified issues such as fire training and health and safety appear excessive, review the need for them. If not, get the training in as soon as possible.

If we (all countries) had done the above we would have started in a better place as the vaccine started to arrive. Even if evenything needs reworking, you are still starting from something rather than nothing.

 

[Zlatan]

UK's decision to delay second Covid vaccine shot reluctantly endorsed by advisors

Germany's health ministry on Monday sought the advice of an independent vaccination commission on whether to follow in the U.K.'s footsteps.

www.cnbc.com

I suspect these people had read the box as well.
Those in power have awful decisions to make. It's a risk either way. That's reality. Moaning at Boris and making these arguments political is ridiculous. We are all fighting the virus, we shouldn't be fighting each other.
I, m fairly sure JVT knows a hundred times more about our predicament than this entire forum combined. He has endorsed decision to extend time. But for some odd reason some folk on here know more than he does???

 

[oyster]

Some (fingers crossed) potential good news:

Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine protects against new variants – study

There’s some very encouraging news from new research suggesting that the Covid-19 vaccine from Pfizer/BioNTech protects against two new variants that are rapidly spreading across the UK.
The pharmaceutical giant and researchers from the University of Texas Medical Branch carried out lab tests on the variants, one of which was found in the UK while the other originated in South Africa.
The variants contain mutations including N501Y, an alteration in the spike protein of the virus, which is a target for vaccines.
In the new study, which has not yet been peer-reviewed, blood samples were taken from 20 people who received the Pfizer vaccine.
Laboratory studies found the samples had neutralising levels of antibodies which appeared to work against the variants.
The third lockdown in England was in response to the rapid spread of the variant found in the south-east, which has now spread to other parts of the UK.
Pfizer has tested 16 different mutations and none of them have had any significant impact on how the vaccine works. However, further studies are planned on other mutations.