The only reason Cameron gave us a referendum was because UKIP was taking voters from the conservatives and labour, but think that situation will continue after the vote whichever way it goes. People are fed up of being lied to and are looking for alternatives. Whether that will be UKIP I'm not sure but I think the process will continue. It was interesting that Cameron would not answer the question directly about using his veto to stop Turkey joining the EU . He should just have been honest and said he wouldn't use it instead of avoiding it. In that way we know what we are voting for, but that's not the way it works. Nice to see Jeremy being honest about unlimited immigration on Andrew Marr. I bet that set a few pulses racing.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
He would use it if there was an attempt to get Turkey in quickly, but he couldn't possibly say that.
That's politics, it's the same for all the EU leaders at present, since they need to keep Turkey sweet over the immigrant return program.
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I think this post may have missed being attached to tillsons on Nigel farage,I haven't quite got the hang of this phone app yet
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What I should have added was that finally a yes vote even only 51% was interpreted by the European elite as agreement to go ahead as they wished, with no further recognition of the factors that people were not happy with.
Even today enlightened folk such as Donald Tusk (and previously David cameron) recognized that fundamental reform is needed. But mark my words a yes vote will not get it and neither will negotiation from within (Cameron tried that one, even with the backdrop or threat of the referendum) all falls on deaf ears. It requires an issue so forceful and so significant in its consequences for change to happen.
Like any negotiation when a failure to agree is worse than the compromise to get people around the table.
That issue is currently a vote for Brexit, but Im quite sure there will be no shortage of crisis in the coming months
So we can establish that letting Turkey in would be a UK issue, not a EU one.
If we leave
If we leave
What is your issue with the EU that's this serious???
I agree. The difference between Cameron and Corbyn
Cameron is a Politician, they dont give straight answers for fear of the next question that they cant answer or leaves them out of a job
Corbyn is an idealist left wing agitator, probably a very nice and honest man with real values, not just which is expedient politically which I can respect but dont give him the keys to No 10 for god sake. But I have no doubt the next labour leader is quietly plotting in the wings even now
KTM
I am quite sure I have voiced this in previous posts but I will try to summarize in as few words as possible
- I do not agree with the direction the EU is going, it seems to be sleep walking to a federal state, driven by Bureaucrats rather than the real consensus of the peoples.
- It is already showing all the signs of future collapse, economically and from external factors that it is proving incapable of addressing. The only answer is always "more of the same". It still sees ita ll as one project, one way, no compromise, no recognition of Euro area plus Non Euro area in anthing but words
- The Greece issue to me was and is being handled in a completely immoral way and the unemployment levels of youth in Greece , Spain, Italy is spelling economic suicide. Those famous phrases " a lost generation". In not addressing these issues they for me lose any moral high ground whilst Germany preserves its wealth and devil take the hindmost is not the sign of a future unified state I would want to be part of
- Finally the democracy issue, we have heard a lot said about that. The mechanisms have to work and be truly influence able and accountable to people in the street. I am not a democracy theorist before some of start quoting theory.
But the British people are completely disengaged from the European process (blame who you like!) and we have a completely different vision to the current Federal vision.
I truly believe ALL of Europe is sleepwalking to that vision and will come around to similar views as Britain has in due course through crisis and conflict. If that could be achieved, ie Reform them my view might change but currently it cannot so lets get out.
Of course a Brexit vote could help things along to a serious dialogue
To avoid confusion I am anti EU not anti europe
I hope that answers your question KTM, it is my view and to those of you that are tempted to simply shout black is white and that I am wrong, then sing to yourself. Any meaningful considered and balance comments or opinions are always welcome of course
I know about that, but in politics expediency comes first.
This is a perfect illustration why referendums are wrong. Once a government is elected, it should be left to get on with the infinitely complex job of governing.
The electorate simply don't have the knowledge and skills to cope with the subtleties required for diplomatic necessity.
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unless the result is better than 55/45, referenda don't satisfy voters and can be downright harmful.
Not sleep walking to a federal state but done in full knowledge, it's been EU policy ever since Maastricht
At Maastricht all the democratically elected governments of member states signed up to a united Europe future. That many in their electorates don't like that now is irrelevant, it's normal for large numbers to disagree with what any government in power does.
The UK referendum is democracy in action, giving us a chance to find the current majority view.
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I agree with some of what you have said ie referendums and letting a government get on with that.
But Cameron manipulated that referendum issue to win an election, which he duly won
He has lied about immigration, he has no control and still will not admit it, which is pointless, the people may not understand complex details but they can sure spot a liar or bullshitter when they see one
He has lied about the economics case
He has grossly lied about his renegotiation on so many levels
does he really think that is fundamental reform?
Did he really go out to negotiate or simply get something to pacify the horses
And his change of tune from before to after is so profound as to lack any credibility. Did they promise to execute him???
Correct me if Im wrong (I am sure one of you will)
We opted out of union and retained a veto, we also were forced out of the ERM and Euro, so our circumstance has to be recognised which is not
We are being dragged in the same direction. The EU is afraid of recognising the two tier approach for fear that more than most may opt for tier 2. in effect a Common market
The current approach is PURE political project, not economics, not defense, not peace in our time. PURE POLITICS, (POWER FOR THE FEW)
And we all know what the majority of us on this thread think of politics and politicians
The only thing worse that a politician, who is elected, is a bureaucrat which is not, especially when he in practice holds all the power, anyone that thinks that is not the case in the EU then you are deluded, look at what we have actually got and the results not what you think we,ve got and the theory
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I have heard this phrase mentioned so often and I don't understand why people mention it, especially as if to suggest it's a bad thing.
The reality, as I think you recognise Flecc, is that the EU is already a de facto federal entity right now, so the stupidity of using the phrase as part of the fearmongering propaganda is obvious.
Federal.
Adjective - having or relating to a system of government in which several states form a unity but remain independent in internal affairs: a federal Europe.2 relating to or denoting the central government as distinguished from the separate units constituting a federation: the health ministry has sole federal responsibility for health care.• (Federal)US historical of the Northern states in the Civil War.
Other dictionaries have similar definitions.
Tom
nothing stops the Greeks abandoning the Euro.
The reason is clear: they believe that are better off remaining in the Eurozone than out.
The question is, should other Eurozone countries put their hands in their pockets and help Greece more?
Agreed, but the EU cannot govern for the one outsider, it has to govern for the majority of full members. Two tiers are not possible. That of course will not suit us.
As I've posted so often, the UK needs to make it's mind up, full membership or total disconnection, trying to sit on the fence is daft, compromise satisfies no-one.
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Don't recall us getting any say in that. Wasn't that a treaty change?